I am a bit confused what outboard I am going to buy. I am considering the tohatsu 90 TLDI or the suzuki DF 90 four stoke. I want to know if you can help me please what are the difference between the two which regards in fuel consumption in litres, speed and reliability.
Thanks for your help :)
The only advice i can offer, is try and get a four stroke, 2 strokes are getting abolished slowly slowly, they require more maintenance, more cost considering you need oil together with the fuel, and as for consupmtion is much more then a four stroke. just my .02c
I would go for the four stroke.
Cla144 i suggest that you stick and post in the same topic if there is already one existing about the same subject cause it becomes more difficult to manage the forum this way i guess
Quote from: fish-noob on December 19, 2008, 11:00:34 CET
The only advice i can offer, is try and get a four stroke, 2 strokes are getting abolished slowly slowly, they require more maintenance, more cost considering you need oil together with the fuel, and as for consupmtion is much more then a four stroke. just my .02c
True but also not true!! True when talking about two strokes as we know them, but Clayton is asking about the TLDI which whilst a two stroke by design giving you weight savings and less engine maintenance they are direct injection ECU controlled engines, that at certain rpm's are more efficient fuel wise than a 4 stroke.
With a 4 stroke you tend to have more weight, depending on the engine sometimes alot more, and higher maintenance costs due to belts etc which need looking at and adjusting. You don't have the oil costs that you need to add to the fuel this is true, though the TLDI's don't use alot.
I own the 90TLDI but still, I would say the DF90 zuke unless the all up weight of the boat+fuel+water+ppl is going to be on the light side maybe 650kgs max excl engine, anything more and opt for the 4 stroke. Then aask yourself how much trolling at 5-6knots you will be doing, if alot go 4 stroke, if not the TLDI is worth considering again, up to a max all up weight of 1200kgs with good performance.
Suzuki 90/80/70 weight = 155kgs (mis-printed at 189kgs on the suzuki.co.uk site) see here for the actual
http://www.suzuki-marine.co.uk/news/detail.php?id=000726
Tohatsu 90 weight = 143kgs
Let us know what boat, size and ideally dry weight, how big the fuel tank will be, if you will carry a water, aux engine, usual number of ppl and intended use.
Quote from: skip on December 19, 2008, 21:11:38 CET
Quote from: fish-noob on December 19, 2008, 11:00:34 CET
The only advice i can offer, is try and get a four stroke, 2 strokes are getting abolished slowly slowly, they require more maintenance, more cost considering you need oil together with the fuel, and as for consupmtion is much more then a four stroke. just my .02c
True but also not true!! True when talking about two strokes as we know them, but Clayton is asking about the TLDI which whilst a two stroke by design giving you weight savings and less engine maintenance they are direct injection ECU controlled engines, that at certain rpm's are more efficient fuel wise than a 4 stroke.
With a 4 stroke you tend to have more weight, depending on the engine sometimes alot more, and higher maintenance costs due to belts etc which need looking at and adjusting. You don't have the oil costs that you need to add to the fuel this is true, though the TLDI's don't use alot.
I own the 90TLDI but still, I would say the DF90 zuke unless the all up weight of the boat+fuel+water+ppl is going to be on the light side maybe 650kgs max excl engine, anything more and opt for the 4 stroke. Then aask yourself how much trolling at 5-6knots you will be doing, if alot go 4 stroke, if not the TLDI is worth considering again, up to a max all up weight of 1200kgs with good performance.
Suzuki 90/80/70 weight = 155kgs (mis-printed at 189kgs on the suzuki.co.uk site) see here for the actual
http://www.suzuki-marine.co.uk/news/detail.php?id=000726
Tohatsu 90 weight = 143kgs
Let us know what boat, size and ideally dry weight, how big the fuel tank will be, if you will carry a water, aux engine, usual number of ppl and intended use.
This is how you calculate - brilliant. i have more experience in 2 & fourstroke motorbikes and also owned a yamaha 9hp 2 stroke - what i said was more of a general explanation. boat size and weight you will carry is a very determining factor..
jien ghandi tohatsu 90hp tldi u sibtu tajjeb hafna.
I have a tohatsu 90hp tldi and found it to be very good. [bigboy]
Hi Skip,
I bought the Kaptan 15ft with cabin (like Kaptan Jnr Boat) dry weight is around 450kgs. The fuel tank shall be around 70 - 90 litres. One auxiliary around 40kg 2 batteries and 3 people. I intend to use the boat for deep bottom fishing and trolling in the range of 3 - 6knots.
Thanks for your valauble help guys :)
check the difference in price of the 90 and the 115 suzuki. I think with the 90 u should be just right... the 115 will be more than enough.I stand to be corrected of course.fishfinder should be able to give u some more inside information.
Lets see what skip has to say about this.
Hello Tony,
since you got me involved i have to reply ;D (joking)
@cla144 1st thing to note is that the 90 (till 2007-08) the 115 and the 140 have the same engine and nearly the same weight(to be honest the bigger the horsepower and the lighter the engine will be)
I beleive that the new version of 90's is much lighter than the 90horse power of last year. I was informed that there's something around 30-35kgs lighter which is quite a lot.
I have the 115 on my Kaptan and Since the one of gnejna was dismantled from it's 115 i think i'm the only one with a 115 installed. Sometimes I feel that if i have to buy another motor I would go for a 140 and I'm saying this because I carry a lot of stuff with me which weighs like 3 persons. This consists of a lot of spare fuel and fishing gear for deepsea + 2 other mates so in total I would be carrying 2persons+3person fishing equipment and me (102kgs :)
make sure you know what you're going for cause every single item that you carry with you is weight and this results in loss of performance.
on buying a Kaptan I have to admit that you bought a very safe boat cause often i had to face an unwanted force 6-7 on sea cause of bad weather forecast.
Domnic Zarb will surely guide you to the correct HP.
I totally agree with your comments fishfinder!
@cla144 - Are you sure of the weight of the Kaptan is at 450kg, I'm seeing it on the low side knowing how sturdily they build their boats. Normally that weight is for a mass produced boat without a cabin!
I have a suzuki 140 fitted on a 19ft. boat and cannot complain so far. I took the advice of our friends in the MFF and the engine is much better than I expected. You might be overshooting a bit with a 140hp but keep in mind that the less you have to rev the engine, the more economical it becomes.
If I were you, I would do as our friend fishfinder suggested and have a word with Dominic Zarb of Suzuki. He's an extremely helpful person and very experienced. His aftersales so far is great! I've only had the boat for half a season but you rarely find agents who, after selling the engine, are willing to give you any size of propeller you wish to try out free of charge and see what suits you best..... Without any hurry! ..... and also come to service the engine in your garage!
Bryan
Charlot as I stated above, the 90 does not apparently weigh the same as the 115/140, it was and still is misprinted on suzuki.co.uk at 189kgs like the 115/140 (although the 140 is a couple of kgs less than 189). The press release on Suzuki's site shows the 90/80/70 as weighing 155kgs.
If you then add 35kgs for a 9.9 aux you're at the same weight as the 115/140 or close enough. I would loved to have put a 140 on the back of the boat assuming I could have afforded it, but I think that couples with the 35kgs of the aux outboard plus the 100litres fuel+40 water all sitting right at the back would have the boat sitting nose up all the time!
Alot depends on the boat but if you go for a bigger engine than a 90 plus an aux see about moving the fuel/water forwards, not everything right at the back. As Charlot said when you start adding extra and lots of gear/ppl you want the extra power.
But I would imagine on a 15ft boat, with the right prop, maybe a four blader for stern lift and better planing/mid range cruise a 90 might be more advantageous due to the weight savings, especially if u can confirm 100% that the 2009 90hp weighs 155kgs.
Yes the new suzuki DF 90 is 155 kgs (341 lbs).
Is it true that the service for 4 stoke outboards is every 100hrs and costs you around 280euros (lm120) for changing filters and other parts?
Happy christmas to you and your families :)
If you change oil+ filter and 4 tubes of gear oil + 4 plugs it should cost approx LM30-35 Max + Labour cost. I never paid so much for a service and may be this year i will change the impeller too. Still note that my last service was in 2007 and still this year I didn't managed to do 100hrs of working. ::)
Lm120 maybe if you're changing the timing belt etc but as Charlot said not for a regular service. Gear oil is expensive for what it is!
Ha nitkellem naqa bil malti biex nispjega ruhi ahjar. Ha nixtri dingi u l iktar li tista itellalu nutur huwa ta 120hp. Issa mecca qalli li jekk trid tista tamlu bil 150hp basta jkun il weight tal 120hp. Qisu ma tanx qed iddoqli ax, orajt habba l weight pero andu x jaqsam nahseb ic cappa li jehel maha l mutur u hekk ukoll nahseb ux ??? U anka nahseb id dingi ikun mamul maximum sa 120hp allura ma jkunx jiflah 150hp? Daqxejn ghajnuna jekkjogobkom
Grazzi
(translation) I would like to speak in Maltese to explain myself better. I am going to buy a dinghy that can take 120Hp outboard.Now Mecca told me that i can use a 150Hp as long as it weighsthat same as the 120Hp. I am not convinced as, i know that the weight is a factor, but its the stern that has to take the strain of the motor?even the dinghy it is made to take a max of 120Hp so i dont think it can take a 150Hp?A bit of help and advice please
Thanks
hellooooooooooooooooooooo, any help ???
I'm no expert boat builder, but if the weight is the same, I very much doubt that the extra 30hp thrust is going to rip off the stern of the dingy. Just don't keep it at full throttle all the time, only when you need that extra power to get on the plane quicker etc, so in short bursts.
It includes 19ft dinghy, power steering 150hp mercury deep V, Vhf Very good condition 12 years old the dinghy and 7 years the motor!?
it costs Lm3500 :-X
BTW it includes ( Karru irgavanizat lest ) andu stereo ukoll u armat minn gewwa full
i think that 12yrs is a bit old for a dighy!!
You're right Ganni a 12 year old Dinghi is a little bit too old for that price.
10x :-[
you did nt mention the name of the rib , its important , still 12 yrs are a bit to old for that price , check also if they used it for hunting if yes forget all about it.
IS the dingi registered , thus includes all the relevant documentation regarding it's outboard motor .
Said so cos i've been cheated once and belive me, is quite a hassle to sort it out with the mma .....
To king
If the boat manufacturer suggest max 120 put 120 and not 150. Remember insurance.i.e. if something happens they can always "escape" by saying it was overpowered.thats my opinion tough. get it checked.
the dingy is an avon. I think its a good manufactor. and yes it was used for hunting, but whats wrong that it was used 4 hunting??? 10x
its already registered yes
the dingy has a 150, i dont know exactly if its limit is 120
probably nothing but i know from experience that huntrers prefere dingys rather than speed cartf or fletcher due to rough seas . i used to see my
friend even leaving from bugibba in foce 7 nw heading to gozo and even in e force 5 .
they are used for high speed and very good in extream conditions bro......
You are absolutely right sirena the reasons are that you can haul a dinghy to the sea from any slipway even if the sea is rough to the point that other fiber speedboats can't be hauled. The second is that they are very safe in rough weather and still can go very fast and I am saying this because I had some personal experience with dinghies in rough sea.
i said so cos i used to hunt long time ago , i know what it fels like at nw force 7 in ghajn tuffieha . nowadays its different nore regulations etc erc,thats why i changed my hobby completely, and by the way,now i do have my own family so.....
yeah same story here although I used to be more on the north to south area and some times in the channel for some good time but as soon as new rules started to pop up I quit.
king i would not buy any boat if used for hunting , why ? cause they will have used frequently and roughly. surely they would have taken the crap out of it.
grazzi fabrizio u kulhadd, sewwa qed tejdu, issa naraw niltaqawx ma wiehed iehor :-\
(Translation)
Thanks Fabrizio and everyone, you're all right what you're saying. Let's see if we'll encounter with another one :-\
fishfinder
Hi everyone,
I have a 15ft Kaptan open (WITH GABUS) with single 50hp Yamaha 4-stroke (110Kgs) and now I bought an aux 15hpYamaha 4 stroke (52kg), In the meantime I am not happy with the main motor speed (with the Aux install) so I am thinking of changing my main motor and go for a 100hp Yamaha 4 stroke. My boat one day was with twin 2 x 50hp 4-stroke (2x 110Kg =220Kgs) but I bought it with one. Just to let you know the extra stuff are two to three people, Battery, 2 Fuel Tanks 96L + 25L and other fishing stuff.
@ FishFinder could you please tell me what is your average speed and the top speed in Knots with your 115Hp and do you have an aux installed?
Can any one help me to choose my new engine?
Thanks a lot for your help.....
it depends how far you go out fishing. if you go out more than 10 miles i would buy another 50 hp if no i would buy a 100 hp with the 15 hp aux. regarding weight there won't be much difference between them
As busu said i rather have 2x 50 hp each than a 100hp. Its true more expenses but the safety factor is there is u intend to go FAR FAR AWAY
If you want to save weight on the transom which a lot of people certainly do, I would have a good look at the new Evinrude ETECs, especially the 130hp model which just came out, or even the 115hp. Darius from RLR can guide you accordingly. Similar engines would be a Mercury Optimax.
If you're going down the 4 stroke route, the current market leaders are Suzuki and Yamaha/Selva
Do your research, compare weight of engines, local prices and local dealer support before deciding. I would also speak with the boat builder Kaptan to see if any of their 15 footers have engines you would be considering and to cross reference how they perform.
Quote from: busumark on September 30, 2010, 12:42:28 CET
it depends how far you go out fishing. if you go out more than 10 miles i would buy another 50 hp if no i would buy a 100 hp with the 15 hp aux. regarding weight there won't be much difference between them
On the other hand I would NOT go for twin outboards unless the boat is capable of running at a reasonable cruise speed with similar consumption on ONE engine. Otherwise all you have is a large expensive auxillary engine where you can acheieve the same by using one larger primary outboard and your current 15hp aux which will give you a similar speed to 1 working 50hp. The weight of 2x50hp will most likely be more than 1 single plus Aux especially if you are looking at 4 strokes.
People keep making the mistake that twin engines are the answer to all your problems!! They most certainly are not unless you go out of your way to have a truly redundant set up - Separate battery, separate fuel tank, filter and fuel lines for total redundancy. You have to look at the reasons why an engine might stop (which tend to run with fuel issues first, then electrical) and finally mechanical faults. As those on the forum will know I am a firm believer that if the boat cannot perform on one engine to get you home, twins are a waste of time and money
Amen Skip. I am getting a new e-tech on my boat to replace 2 inboard diesels.
skip is right in saying that you have to have 2 fuel tanks and two batteries for a twin engine but even with a big motor and aux you still need two batteries. even if i have one motor i would still do two batteries. the difference in weight of the motors between the two setups will be about 10-15 kg more with the twin motors. so the weight is not a big issue.
with a 15 hp aux you will do maybe 5-6 kts in calm sea but in a choppy sea and headwind it will go down to maybe 4 kts and you will not have good control of the boat. it is good for going out 10 miles but not if going further out.
with a 50 hp you wont do much more than 6-7 kts because the boat is not on plane but if you are in a choppy sea and going headwind you will still do 6 kts and have more control of the boat and this is good when you are a bit far away from land.
The best thing is to have 2 motors and you can plane the boat with only one but it will be a bit expensive.
Busu you raise some very valid points about the increase in current/wind in terms of power to keep up the speed, but at what fuel burn?
More control with twin engines is only achieved with counter rotating engines and these don't tend to be available in 50hp. I would disagree that a 15hp would only push a 15 foot boat at 6 knots. My 9.8hp 4 stroke pushes an 18 foot boat with 100L fuel, 40L water and I'm not small! at 6.5 knots at 3/4 after I changed to the correct prop so a 15hp with the right prop should give you the max hull speed before planing with no issues whatsoever even when the wind picks up a bit.
I am not a fan of twin engines!!!
if dealing with outbords i would go for a big motor which can get the boat on the plane with not much power and with little consumption and then having an aux which can push the boat say 6-7kts.
As for inboards id say one good engine as a main and an aux outbord at the back
Seeing that Skip referred to hull speed, we have to keep in mind that this is a very valid point and the smaller the boat the less the hull speed. There is a specific formula for calculating hull speed which is: Hull Speed = 1.34 * (LWL)^1/2, where LWL is the length of the waterline in feet.
This means that for a waterline of 15 feet (which is usually the case for boats of a length overall of around 16/17feet), this means that hull speed would be around 5.19knots. It's generally easy to push a boat up to her hull speed but over this you need much more horespower as the boat will start digging into the water and creating a lot of wake, before going on the plane.
If you would like to check your boat's hull speed, you can check out the following page:
http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__hull_speed.htm (http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__hull_speed.htm)
@redhead - my friend you won't be disappointed at all. If the ETEC you'll be buying is as fuel efficient as my 50HP ETec you'll be more than satisfied in the end. I found out this summer that my 50HP ETec on a Fastfisher 14 Open is by far more economical than my 9.9HP Mariner 2-stroke on my previous 13ft frejgatina. Initially I was sceptical about it but I found out how economical these ETecs are. Another great added bonus is that in Darius of RLR you will find an excellent gentleman with fantastic aftersales.
skip i was referring having more control of the boat between using one engine and using the aux in a rough or windy day. you can control better the boat with one engine in this situation. fuel burn i think it will be the same or better with one 50 hp because you have to give nearly full throttle to the 15 hp and even 4-stroke consume a lot of fuel when they are not running at an ideal speed compared to the fuel being used.
i know who has a 9.9 hp an a 16 ft and can only do maximum 5 kts. maybe it depends also from the boat.
Yes busu I think it does depend on the boat. In fact this summer I sold my 9.9HP Mariner 2-stroke. The first person who tried it had a Maxum 18ft with an inboard diesel and the 9.9HP could hardly push the boat with 3 persons on it. At full throttle it could barely make 2 knots. Than someone else was interested and we tried it on his boat which was also an 18ft (don't know brand of boat) with an 85HP Yamaha 2-stroke. With 3 persons on board it produced between 5-6 knots at full throttle. This guy was satisfied and I concluded the deal.
@skip - Can you please elaborate further why twin engines are a no go? I have this idea in mind that having 2x50hp is better than having 1x100hp. The boat must be able to plane with a single motor though so that if one fails you will still achieve a reasonable speed (10-15knt).
@salmon - go to kaptan boats and ask them to fit the extension on outboard motor platform. This will solve the weight issue.
I'm no expert at all but some research on ETEC shows as follows:
E50DSL (50HP) = 109kg (P/W Ratio 0.459)
E90DSL (90HP) = 145kg (P/W Ratio 0.621)
E115DSL (115HP) = 170KG (P/W Ratio 0.676)
E130DPL/DSL (130hp) = 177kgs (P/W Ratio 0.734)
Suzuki DF140 4 Stroke (140hp) = 186kgs (P/W Ratio 0.753)
So definitely with 2 x 50HP one would have too much weight to carry and thus more fuel consumption. Is it worth the fuel consumption when one engine is most of the time not running, just as a back up. It's just my opinion.
I would have preferred my 9.9HP Mariner 2-stroke as a back-up than a 5-6HP 4-stroke I have to buy for my boat but unfortunately space on the transom did not permit
Quote from: busumark on October 01, 2010, 08:27:18 CET
skip i was referring having more control of the boat between using one engine and using the aux in a rough or windy day. you can control better the boat with one engine in this situation. fuel burn i think it will be the same or better with one 50 hp because you have to give nearly full throttle to the 15 hp and even 4-stroke consume a lot of fuel when they are not running at an ideal speed compared to the fuel being used.
i know who has a 9.9 hp an a 16 ft and can only do maximum 5 kts. maybe it depends also from the boat.
I ran for just over 4 hours using 12 litres of fuel at 6.0 - 6.5 knots with 3 people on board and full fuel when using my aux engine - I totally agree that its not so comfortable to control at all but if used as an emergency engine you could set the throttle, tighten and then use the main engine and wheel as a rudder to get your home.
Quote
@skip - Can you please elaborate further why twin engines are a no go? I have this idea in mind that having 2x50hp is better than having 1x100hp. The boat must be able to plane with a single motor though so that if one fails you will still achieve a reasonable speed (10-15knt).
Twin engines wouldn't be my first choice in this kind of horsepower range for the reasons stated above in the preceeding posts. With no counter rotation, aside from some of the points raised by Busu there simply aren't enough benefits.
Small twins like 2x50 mean - higher initial purchase cost, more complicated rigging up to the centre console, double the cost when it comes to servicing (2 oil filters, 2 drive gear oils to change, engine oil change, and all other service related items) for in my opinion little to no benefit whatsoever.
In the past I was always, twins are the way to go offshore until I started reading boat test reviews and listening to people on forums in the USA about their experiences. On some boats you have to have twins, especially the larger ones, but on smaller boats I think it's an overkill with no tangible benefits.
I don't have any prices handy but I would say that 2 x 50hp 4 strokes would cost alot more than a single 115/130/140hp engine and bear in mind that if you already own an emergency aux engine why buy twins? Call me crazy but this year I even removed my aux engine from my boat and simply ran with the main engine and my PLB. The boat ran better, used less fuel and the transom looks a lot nicer with an aux hanging off the side.
Ultimately its a matter of preference but I would be inclined to say that a boat with twin 50's would use more fuel overall than a boat with a single 115/130/140hp engine. In addition smaller boats tend not to have a wide transom forcing you to install the engines very close together further reducing the handling benefits of twin engines and also not being able to benefit from putting one F and one in R to spin the boat on its axis when maneouvering.
To really determine performance and fuel burn you would have to compare the set ups. I know that Kaptan Jnr has 2 x 50hp Tohatsu TLDIs, Moonwalker you have a single DF90 if I'm not mistaken on the same boat? A proper test would involve using inline fuel flow sensors but you could do it the old fashioned way, put in a fixed amount of fuel, the same on each boat, have the same overall load and then run together abeam at the same speeds etc and evaluate speed performance and fuel burn.
If you utilise 2x50hp as a reference and you lose one engine, the only way you will get the boat to plane would be to jump in the water and change the prop to a lower pitch which most ppl would find a hassle.
Otherwise as previously explained all you have is a big expensive aux engine (the 2nd working 50hp) - I liked Busu's point about if the wind picks up you stand a better chance of maintaining the same 6 knot speed in a Force 4 with a 50hp versus a 15hp aux.
I had far too much weight at the stern of my boat with the primary 90hp, 9.8hp aux, 2x50L fuel and 1 x40L water all at the stern and it really affects the handling of the boat. Weight is the #1 enemy on smaller boats especially if its all at the stern!
Benri can confirm that the Suzuki DF140 sips fuel - on his 20 foot boat heavily loaded with fuel and people the digital flow gauge was showing only 16.5 litres per hour burn at around 21 knots. That's less than I use on my 18 footer with a 90!!
Just a reminder that MECCA has launched the new 4 Stroke VERADO Outboards and all backed up with 5 years Guarantee. Since these are made in USA, they are paid in dollars therefore cheapest prices guaranteed.
Thanks
Nichol
Mercury Verado 150hp - 213kgs (P/W Ratio 0.649)
Mercury Optimax 125hp - 170kgs (P/W Ratio 0.735)
Mercury Optimax 135hp - 195kgs (P/W Ratio 0.692)
Mercury Optimax 150hp - 195kgs (P/W Ratio 0.769)
@malvizzu - having 2x50HP you would run them at the same time not using one as backup. :)
@skip - thanks for the detailed post. I dont intend to change my motor on my boat any time soon since I'm satisfied with it. I have the boat for over 4 years now and go a day out fishing on average every 2 weeks. The DF90 always started and performed without any problems and never had to use the auxiliary.
I am asking about 2 motors for a bigger boat when I decide to upgrade in the future. On a 22-25 footer I think a twin outboard setup (2x125 or 2x150) should be a good choice.
However I heared some owners of boats with twin outboards saying that boat will not plane with just one outboard and with one outboard OFF speed is max of 7knt. Since the only advantage of having twin outboards is redundancy, this will not make much sense.
My idea of twin outboards is for redundancy but the boat must be able to plane if one motor goes dead. Otherwise a big motor and a smaller auxiliary should be the choice.
Lets imagine u are out fishing 20 miles out or far far away and although it is calm where u are, but the weather has picked up closer to shore and gradually picking up. By the time u are set to leave u have a strong head wind with strong currents coming from shore.
ur engine has a problem and u start the auxiliary 15/18 hp.......after an hour u realise that u are not making much headway...........two hours after u are still struggling and u start to worry.......light is dwindling and believe me, u start to pray
hopefully u dont panic cause that will make it worse......
this is a scenario that those who have been boating must have encountered or know of someone who was in that situation.
Never mind the suggestion of having an diesel inboard and a petrol outboard......yes nice good idea, u have to carry at least twice the expected trip in diesel for safety and twice the amount in petrol......Ha who was talking about extra weight
And the suggestion a bit less drastic of 4 stroke and 2 stroke. make sure u can access the 4 stroke fuel tank.........dont forget u are not in calm seas.
I had a passenger and because I ran out of diesel (and I have one engine that stops before the other as a warning sign that i am out of diesel), as soon as I told him dont worry we are out of diesel he went WHITE and we were about 15 miles out, alungi season, it was 3 pm and the sea just a bit choppy.
Skip I dont blame u that u took off the auxiliary, its a dead weight in rough seas, in calm seas if u dont have it then its no problem if u can send a distress call there is no bad feeling that u get with a rough sea.
I still think its better for a boat to have one single big engine....less initial cost, more balance, less maintenance expenses, but not as safe a having a twin powered boat, and i dont mean an auxiliary.
so its a matter or either buying one outboard and buying the necessary safety equipment, and maybe go out with another boat.
or buying a twin engine and still buy the necessary safety equipment, but safer to go out on ur secret fishing ground.
With my Suzuki DF115 and loaded with my fishing gear and another passenger currently i can reach 26 knots and empty i can do 30-31knots. these readings are achieved from a Lowrance GPS not from a speedometer.
as Moonwalker said an additional bracket under the baiting platform will reducing the air which gets trapped under it and will definetly help by rising the boat from the motor weight. (at last my theory was right 8)
in my opinion If i have to buy another boat I would go for Twin identical engines and will definetly choose the biggest possible so that I could plan the boat or troll even with one motor. who ever uses twin motors knows that they are better for fishing especially with bottom long lines cause you can put one on reverse and the other forward and you can turn on any side you want.
BUT Since you have a 50hp and you have also an auxiliary and you're definetly not satisfied with the weight I would choose the new Suzuki DF90 which is a very good engine running on a very low fuel consumpion and powerful as my DF115, and keep the auxiliary.
Suzuki are very reliable motors and one other important factor when choosing a motor one must consider the prices of the parts cause I've heard a lot of people scrapping outboards cause the parts are too much expensive to repair.
Is there any one who knows if the new 2 strokes Etec's can handle slow speed for over 12hours? cause with my Suzuki I've never had any problems!!
Fishfinder
I am definitely no expert on boats but i would guess that the power of the auxilliary engine necessary would depend on the boat's hull shape at least as much as on weight and length. On the 15 foot RIB freedive found that a 4 hp outboard is next to useless as an auxiliary. I guess that it would also be of very limited use for a modern, high speed planing non RIB boat of similar size in anything but the calmest condition. However I think that for a 14 or 15 foot traditional shaped, round bottom hull e.g. a frejgatina or kajjik a 4 hp auxilliary could be sufficient. Traditional displacement boats are very slow but require very little power to move. Remember how many of the old 12 -13 foot frejgatini used to be powered with just a 1.5 hp inboard stuart turner engine!
This is the only way we can find the right solution but everyone posting and helping each other. Being a small market we don't have the luxury of being able to try out the same boat powered by different hp or bands, it's only when fellow boat owners posted their numbers and experiences that it can help someone decide. Dealers locally tend to contact owners and ask if they will take out a potential customer for a test run, but through the forum we can get some first hand good information as well.
One of the reasons why on say twin 50's a boat won't plane has to do with the diameter and pitch of the props versus the load of the boat. When both are running properly the boat is pitched that the load is spread over the 2 engines, but when you're stuck with one, you need to reduce diameter and pitch to help the prop spin up and handle the load. For the prop its like you left port with 1 person on board and are trying to come back with 10 people on board, so just like when you add weight on a boat you reduce pitch and sometimes even diameter, this is what is usually required when coming back in on twin's that won't let the boat plane on 1 engine with std prop config.
It would be interesting if we could arrange with Kaptan Boats and Kaptan Jnr to try and find a lower pitch prop for his 50TLDI's and see what effect that has when running on 1 engine - ie. can the boat get up on the plane with a prop swap and if so what pitchxdiameter is needed to achieve this - what speed can be attained and what's the fuel burn.
On bigger boats I think I would still go for a twin outboard set up - as we all know engines cost serious money, but if there's one piece of advice I'd like to give it's this: Don't rush to purchase and then compromise on hp due to budget constraints. Better to wait another six months and save a bit more to get as close to the max rated hp for that boat. My father always used to tell me, come within 10% of the max rated hp by the boat builder, never less! So if max hp is 200hp, don't drop below 180hp. In Malta we need to also bear in mind two other factors that reduce engine power: 1) High humidity levels (notice how your boat runs better in winter) and 2) Mediocre fuel quality
Skip - Out!
Changing the prop while out at sea is not something I would even think about. Its better to keep the lower pitch props and have your mind at rest that if one fails you can still plane the boat with one motor.
In the past I used to have a 50hp 4 stroke on my boat and I could plan the boat only when it was completely empty and the max speed was 17 knots. After having my boat for a couple of years I would say that if my bracket was modified as Moonwalker did I would plan the boat much better and may be achieve more knots. still at that time I was planning to buy his twin brother but since weight and a bigger price was involved we had to go for the 115hp.
I fully agree with skip regarding HP, always go for the biggest engine cause it's always good to have extra power than less and sometimes fuel economy becomes cheaper as well since the motor will be working on lower revs.
Quote from: Moonwalker on October 02, 2010, 10:23:10 CET
Changing the prop while out at sea is not something I would even think about. Its better to keep the lower pitch props and have your mind at rest that if one fails you can still plane the boat with one motor.
Totally agree I would not want to change at sea especially in rough weather. You can't keep the lower pitch props on the boat during normal running with both engines as you would be over-revving and losing lots and lots of performance. Basically the props would have no bite/push through the water. You'd have super fast acceleration but would max out very very quickly!
Too bad! Does that also apply for large twin motors in the 150hp range?
Quote from: fishfinder on October 01, 2010, 19:35:17 CET
Is there any one who knows if the new 2 strokes Etec's can handle slow speed for over 12hours? cause with my Suzuki I've never had any problems!!
With my 50HP Etec he maximum i throlled was 5 hours at say 900-1000 revs with no trouble at all. If i'm not mistaken my engine can go down to 750 revs for hours without engine getting hot but I've never tried it or had the needs to try it.
Malvizzu your etec is one hell of a motor....i did a sea test with Darius of the 300hp etec and was really impressed by the quality of the motor.
What about trolling at VERY low speeds for an extended period of time? here I mean speeds down to 1 knot or so as when trolling with livebait or pieces of squid? Will a large single outboard (close to the maximum rated for the boat) allow this? Or would the slowest speed possible be too high such that an auxilliary will have to be used?
Trolling at one knot??? ???
with a suzuki 140 I manage to troll at those speeds for 5-6 hours without any problem. My mate also has a selva 100 where he manages to do it too.
The only problem is sometimes when you're in favour of the wind/current when you exceed that speed even with the engine on free!
What's a trolling valve by the way?
Yes I believe my suzuki DF90 is capable of those low speeds too. While deep bottom fishing and with some wind from the back, I keep the motor on reverse at the slowest revs. Never had any problems with engine heating.
Trolling Valves are used on inboards with shafts and they help to lower the rpm at the drive to get the slow speed required. On an outboard you can't do that, you can only drop to say 800rpm so if you're still too fast, use a drogue chute to slow you down (a sea anchor)
thanks nick!
From the above it seems that a 4 stroke outboard, at least a suzuki may be ideal if one wants to troll at such slow speeds. Are the modern 2 strokes such as the etec capable of a similar performance at such low speeds? I have no boating experience other than with very small and slow boats but who knows, I might consider getting something a little better in the future so it is good to know such things!
It's something I would love to try as it's a question that keeps coming up. Can the ETECs handle extended periods of trolling at low revs without issues.
Perhaps we can arrange with RLR to take out one of their boats, along with the ETEC computer/software and run some diagnostics on the engine.... Pre-start of trolling, during and after a few more hours. See how things like burn, water temps etc hold up.
Checked with Darius of RLR and he confirmed that the plugs of the ETECs are guaranteed for 300 hours of use, irrelevant of trolling at low speeds or high speeds. If one assumes the average use per summer can be between 50 – 65 hours for a summer, this is very good.
I'm hoping that we can soon make available a computer diagnostic print-out taken from an ETEC 75hp used locally by a person who specifically does low rpm trolling.
The print out will show the percentage used the most, eg. <2000rpm etc etc
Would be very interesting to do such reports for other brands too.