Guys could you help me out with this one pls ?
What is exactly a max drag of a reel ?
What is the difference between a max drag, a max drag at strike and a max drag at strike with freespool ?
From what i could gather it is the force of the reel that can exert on the line.. thus the fish. But the again i'm sure there is much much more to it..
This all depends on the reel specification.
I would suggest that before understanding this phrase, you think about drag systems and their usage. Here is some very informative reading bythe great Peter Pakula.
http://www.pakula.com.au/BTL/Docs/0203_Reels.html (http://www.pakula.com.au/BTL/Docs/0203_Reels.html)
Following this, read this http://www.pakula.com.au/BTL/Docs/0401_Setting_the_Drag.html (http://www.pakula.com.au/BTL/Docs/0401_Setting_the_Drag.html)
Now for the grand finale http://www.pakula.com.au/BTL/Docs/0402_The_Reel_Drag.html (http://www.pakula.com.au/BTL/Docs/0402_The_Reel_Drag.html)
This should answer all you questions ;D
Great link Joe! That's a very interesting read - thanks :)
tal genn xtahseb
Thanks for those fantastic links joe :)
Have i understood correctly if i state that :
(A) if a max drag at strike is rated at for example 30lbs then the max line breaking strain class used can be up to 90lbs, and fish of up to 300lbs can be handled ?
(B) a max drag is the full drag that can be exerted, which would be around two thirds of the line breaking strain ?
Yes, the theory is that you set your drag to one third of the line breaking rate at strike.
What I liked most out of the article because I didn't know the theory, was that whilst the strike position should be 1/3 line rating, and that's where you usually put the drag when trolling, it stated that if you don't expect to be catching large fish you should reduce your drag when trolling down to 10% of the estimated fish weight you are targeting. So a 10kgs Alungi you would set to 1kg and mark it accordingly on the reel. That's something I definately want to do, find some good quality printable labels and mark up 0.5kgs, 1kgs and 2kgs markers so I know what I'm setting. You then also know your reference for strike which here in Malta we usually move up to once we've got the fish on and the hook set.
thats why i like lever drag reels. U can set the strike exactly and then just ease off with the lever although i dont really bother to ease off i just leave the drag on the strike and take it from there. Ramio likes to keep the drag set light and lets the fish make a run. On the contrary i like to keep a max strike drag on and just see the rod bend double and make the fish turn.
Skip although u are targeting a 10Kg alunga i wouldnt set the drag on 1kg that is if u dont want to empty the reel and take more time to bring the fish alongside. When fishing for alungi or any fish for that matter u has to make the best of the fishing time window.
I tend to fish like Ramio as you have described it, I prefer to keep my drag set light and let the fish make a run which gives me time to get on the reel, wait a few seconds in case there are other strikes and then slow down etc. I found with the drag on std strike, the hookup rate was lower suggesting one was ripping the hook out.
When we had tried going trolling for swords we had reset all our drags with a drag scale to try and get it just right, but we didn't have any strikes!!!
I ones read an article about swordfish set up. The Guy had line going out of reel with a 20-30m loop then hooked on to a realease clip placed aft. From here there was a second loop of 20m then on to another realease clip on the outrigger, from there to the lure.
The idea was that the swordfish first strikes the bait with its blade to injure it, then circles back to swallow the injured fish at ease. With this setup, the outrigger clip is set very light, so coming off with the first strike, the loose gives the temporarily hesitation of the bait as if injured. when the fish comes round to swallow it will find lure easier to swallow resulting in a better hook up.
This explains why most hook ups of sword fish are from their blade. A better and more exciting way to do it is to have a large loop from the reel in the water (say20-30m) and hold line in your hand. Once you feel the gentle playing on the lure you let go and slow down the boat. When the fish starts taking line from the reel which is left with a very low drag, drag is adjusted to strike position, and you strike.
Many a time when we used to fish with hand lines, I used to feel the playing with the lure but never realised it was a swordfish. That's when an experienced fisherman friend of mine told me to keep 30m of line on the deck and release when this was felt to mimick the bait being injured.
One draw back I found when using the first (clip) methode, was that I could never set the 1st clip light enough as I usually have the lure way out behind the boat. This applies a lot of pull on clip so keeps setting off even with swell pull.
I prefere the line in hand in the second option when I know there are swords about.
Quote from: skip on December 24, 2008, 12:51:48 CET
whilst the strike position should be 1/3 line rating, and that's where you usually put the drag when trolling, it stated that if you don't expect to be catching large fish you should reduce your drag when trolling down to 10% of the estimated fish weight you are targeting.
Skip i just read that fish weigh 10% in water of what they weigh on land, i guess that's why max drag should not be more than 10% of the weight of the fish being targeted.. and why big fish are caught on lines with break strains much less than that of fish's weight..
exactly maltembu. There is also the fighting ability of the rod which has to be considered too. All these factors contribute to what is called fishing on light tackle.
the drag has nothing to do with the fish being caught or targetted. Its the line u are using which makes the difference. If u are targetting alungi (approx weight 6 to 24 kg {12lb to 53lbs}). Sour draq would be 10lbs and ur max drag would go to 24lbs. dont forget u are targetting a max of 53lbs fish. u will still hold the bigger fish on that line it will take u longer to bring to ship side thats all. If u use a 60lbs line then ur drag will be 20lbs and max drag of 48lbs. This will be easier to bring the fish in quicker. And i can assure u that with a drag of around 30lbs (12kg) u bring an alunga really quick in, apart from the initial run.
to really have fun try to get a 20lbs line and see what happens. use a leader with a lighter line set up as just by scraping on the skin it will get cut.
Happy fishing
Tony the issue about the drag in realtion to the fish was to do with how you set your trolling strike position not in relation to the overall set up of the reel (max drag etc). You said you like to run a factory std heavy drag strike point, but Peter Pakula is suggesting that one set's up the position between 0 and strike at 10% of the targeting fish weight and to mark that position on the lever drag to help guide you with coming up with a good amount of drag to have the fish set the hook etc.
I personally don't agree at all with having my reel set all the way up to the std factory strike position and leaving it there when trolling. It's fine when using lighter/cheaper reels, but I assure you that a decent reel like the Penn 30V, 50V or one of the Tiagra would show up a flaw in that method by exerting too much pressure when setting the hook on the type of fish we get here. If you compare the drag pessures at strike and max of various 30lbs class reels you would see a huge variation. If you know that the fish you are targeting have strong mouths and won't pull a hook with a large amount of initial pressure fair enough, but I personally prefer to err on the side of caution or at least know the capabilities of your reels well.
The drag pressure exerted by my Okuma Titus Gold 50II Wide (Okuma's flagship reel) comes no where close to that of my Penn 50VW and even a bit less than the Penn 30VW I have. So sometimes working on the reel rating is misleading because cheaper reels won't manage to achieve anywhere close to 24lbs of sustained drag pressure at max drag, that's where paying for a good reel comes up trumps. On the cheaper reels you'd probably find you're better off loading them with lower rated good quality mono in order to be able to get more line on the reel. Most Senators for example can exert a maximum of 21-24bs of drag presure (Models 114-115) respectively, which is why the 115 has such a large line capacity to help counter this.
This all being said for the fish we come across locally excluding the occasional monster at a fishfarm we really don't need to be worrying about having anything more than 20lbs of max drag, so my flashy Penn's are pretty pointless in that respect!!
Which I suppose proves The_Gaffer's choice of why he fishes with 40lbs line and nothing more, simply utilising a bit of additional insurance by using Momoi Diamond which will break at around 70lbs unlike most other mono's.
So if u are targeting alungi of say 10kg and having a 40lbs line you would set your drag at 1kg?? cause that will be 10% of the fish weight. With that type of setting an alunga which isnt a strong fish u will run out of line by the time u say strike, worst still if u hook up a 24kg tuna then u will see the line flying out.
I fished for alungi with 70lbs line tied directly to the cleat (ramio i think had this experience once as well, where he practically dragged the fish behind him or God knows how long before he noticed he had an exhausted fish on line). I also fished alungi with a 60 lbs hand held line no strike or max drag just one setting my arm muscle.
I fished alungi with a 30lbs line and with a strike setting of 12lbs.
but i cannot see me using a 40lbs line with a strike setting of 3lbs. I rate the strike setting to one third of the line weight. If i want to set the strike setting lower i use lighter line. I like to match the line according to the fish i am targetting not the strike set. The strike set is always one third of the line i am using. thats why i use lever drags to be able to set the strike tension from home.
If the momoi breaks at 70lbs than the gaffer is using a 70lbs line maybe with a thickness of normal 40lbs lines but its still a 70 pounder.
It's a fair point Tony when you point in out in that way. At the moment what I do is deploy my lures, the move the drag up enough to prevent the forward motion of the boat and the waves/current from taking any line from the reel. Off hand I have no idea how much drag pressure that would be as it varies with the type of lure used, the speed of the boat and the waves conditions.
Thing is as I've understood the article, he's not saying set your strike drag at 3lbs (ie the physical printed words strike that appear on most lever drag reels).....he's saying you mark a position between 0 and strike that is 10% of the fish weight you are targeting as a reference amount. Aside from Everol reels no reel shows you the amount of drag pressure you have set. With that position marked you use this point as a reference or where to set your lever drag whilst trolling.
I agree to an extent that if you hit into a really big fish you're likely to lose alot of line but I think that only an issue on reels that are spooled with relatively small amounts like <300 yards. I wasn't aware however that you could use some heavy pressure on alungi and not worry about pulling a hook so that's pretty interesting to find out and I know you've been fishing for them for years. However I still reckon it might reduce your hookup ratio a bit.
So going back to what you wrote, if your reel can do it, your physically marked words strike would be 1/3 of the line rating and your full/max drag would be 1/2 of the line rating, this is how I normally have them too, though I've found that I word off the 1/3 strike amount and then see what I the reels gives me at full and bear that in mind.
If using the momoi I don't think I would set myself up for 70lbs line, but somewhere in between maybe 50lbs.
Thing with Alungi is that 95% of the time you know where you are, you're going to get something between 7 and 12kgs.....but with Bluefin that's a different story unless you visually see them. You might hit a 10kgs or a 30kgs!
That's what I like about the Penn V series, their drag adjust has numbered detents so you can set your reel up accordinly and change it in the field with no worries. All you do is map yourself on land once and then you know where you are.
Ultimately the bottom line is get out there and have fun, we simply don't get the big fish to have to worry about these technicalities like they do abroad :) !!
u got it right there.
Quote from: skip on January 01, 2009, 18:09:58 CET
Thing is as I've understood the article, he's not saying set your strike drag at 3lbs (ie the physical printed words strike that appear on most lever drag reels).....he's saying you mark a position between 0 and strike that is 10% of the fish weight you are targeting as a reference amount.
Skip in the article he's stating to mark the strike drag at 10% of the fish weight or 1/3 of the line rating, whichever one is less.. not as reference..
no maltembu the thing is that the lever drag reels have the word "strike" printed on them and at home u push the lever drag up to that mark and adjust the drag to be 1/3 of the line poundage once u have done that u decide what fish u are targeting like alungi (apprx 7 to 12 kg) take 10% of that which is approx 2kg and find where the reels stars releasing the line at the 2 kg weight. U mark that on the reel (thats why a reference) and troll with that line mark, when the fish strikes u move the lever up to the strike mark on the reel.
Hope i made myself clear!
What i dont agree with (and thats my personal taste) is that i like my drag to be set higher and once the fish strikes, after the initial run is immediately turned round and following the boat. Let me only state that this is not the optimal way especially if u hit a swordfish or pastardella. with the reel set light u have a better chance of hooking one. As they tend to hit the lure with their bills and then come back to eat the stunned lure(they dont know its not a fish)
with alungi it doesnt really matter.
Thanks shanook, i don't have a lever drag reel yet but i'm in the process of deciding which one :-\
Thanks for the info mates :)
Quote from: maltembu on January 02, 2009, 09:45:08 CET
Thanks shanook, i don't have a lever drag reel yet but i'm in the process of deciding which one :-\
Thanks for the info mates :)
Which reels have you narrowed it down to? And what's your approx budget?
I think it's between smano tld25 and penn 114 ;D I would go for the penn 114...what do you think brother?
I have both reels maltembu, so if you want to get a visual of both reels, just say so. I've caught fish on both as well, and they both handle well. The only differeence is that the Penn 114 has a star drag system while the tld25 uses a lever drag.
I have decided for a lever drag, i think it's between tld50II or the penn international 50 single speed.. Do you guys think they're an overkill for malta ? It's for my 30 to 50lbs rod.. For alunghi and maybe king neptune will one day send me a nice tuna ;)
If it was me and after having bought several reels including some overkill ones I reckon I would settle on the TLD30II. I personally reckon that the 50's are an overkill and the Penn 50VW is one big reel. If you want you can come over and check out my two Penn's, the 30VW and the 50VW so you can get an idea of size, quality etc. And you can also compare alongside the Okuma Titus 50W-II
@ the gaffer & skip.. Thanks for your offer guys.. I appreciate.. a lot.. :)
TLD25 is a good choice as well, you could probably buy two for the price of the TLD30II, and then upgrade the drag with a carbontex one to give you more pressure in case you do hook into an unusually big fish!! Having the bigger reels is always nice but sadly we just dont get the fish for them.
If you're buying lots of reels the 114H or 114HLW are hard to beat in terms of value for money. If you don't need to equip yourself with four rods etc I would prefer the TLD25 with the drag mod.
Weird! Just to add to this, I checked out the Penn US site www.pennreels.com and they quote the max drags on the reels as:
Max Drag at strike, and not max drag a full/sunset.
eg:
Senator Special 113H 20lbs@Strike
Senator Special 114H 22lbs@Strike
Senator 115L 23.5lbs@Strike
International 30VW 23lbs@Strike
International 50VW 28lbs@Strike
TLD 25 17lbs@Strike (22lbs at Max) - All figures freespool so will be less with line on it.
TLD 30II 24lbs@Strike (33lbs at Max) - All figures freespool so will be less with line on it.
TLD 50II 29lbs@Strike (37lbs at Max) - All figures freespool so will be less with line on it.
TLD 50IILRSA 32lbs@Strike (42lbs at Max) - All figures freespool so will be less with line on it.
Skip, I'm not as techy as you when it comes to drag washers. Would really appreciate some help in upgrading my penn114 and tld25 drag system. Any suggestions?
TLD 25 Upgrade to Carbontex Drag Washer : $19.00
+ Cals Drag Grease $7.00
Penn 113H upgrade to Carbontex Drag Washer set of 6 : $17.00
www.smoothdrag.com
114H doesn't seem to be listed but I'm sure he does it. The 113's and 114's well basically all the Senator's also have metal washers in between the drag washer's themselves and smoothdrag do upgraded metal washers as well that go for between $14-16 depending on the model.
The upgrade won't necessarily give you lots more drag pressure but it will make them feel smoother and keep sustained drag pressure.
Alan Tani's recommended limit for the TLD25 is 18lbs at strike as apparently anything more than that and you start to place undue pressure on the graphite frames which are known to crack at the base if pushed. You can also re-orientate the belleville washers from their stock config to get more sustained pressure.
Alan Tani the god of reels has a rebuld article here that includes the upgrade:
http://www.big-game-board.info/english-spoken-section/tackle-rigs-and-knots/reels/1718-tutorial-shimano-tld-20-25-rebuild/
The pictures form this rebuild are not working as the site where they are hosted seems to have been suspended! The power handles are also considered to be an excellent upgrade, either the Tiburon http://www.tiburonengineering.com/html/t-bar_handles.html or Reels colours http://www.reelcolors.com/reelcolors_004.htm
You can also do the handle upgrade to the 114's.
Suggest you all have a read of this article attached as well.
Quote from: skip on January 04, 2009, 12:43:53 CET
Alan Tani's recommended limit for the TLD25 is 18lbs at strike as apparently anything more than that and you start to place undue pressure on the graphite frames which are known to crack at the base if pushed.
Are the tld xt7 graphite bodies reliable ? as i'm seriously considering either the tld30II or tld50II..
Thanks..
The XT7 bodies are definately stronger than the single speed TLD's, but either way I don't think you will be approaching the stage of placing undue pressure on either locally.
Found this site to reinforce the body.. Even though we won't need it... ;) :(
http://www.tiburonengineering.com/html/reel_frames.html (http://www.tiburonengineering.com/html/reel_frames.html)
maltembu nahseb li qied tifissa iz zejjed
ur right bobbyjoe!!
maltembu you don't have to worry about these things!! i saw a dvd in which a 89kg tuna was caught on a tld25!! and another one on which a tiger shark of 250lb estimate was caught!!
is that enough mate??
As the guys said, there's no need to go that far.....if you're going to go with the TLD30II or 50II that's more than enough and leave them stock. If you catch loads and loads of fish and wear your drag washer down then you can always change to a carbontex one. Offhand I'm not sure what Shimano use in their TLD II speeds. Even the stock TLD25 is fine for what we come across. If you do get a whopper which so far I've not come across trolling yet, sod-it if you lose it!
Ganni in that dvd you saw, was he fishing all mono, or spectra backing with a mono top shot? Unless the fish was tired to start with an 89kgs fish pulling on only 18-20lbs of sustained drag pressure is likely to empty the TLD25 pretty quickly as it doesn't have the drag pressure of 26lbs plus to limit the runs. Or was the skipper backing down on the fish etc?
Noel kevin and myself told you many a time that you are going to far ;)
Se tonfoq hafna flus zejda sihbi ax li issib mostru jekk inkunu trolling tkun darba f mitt qamar.
Go for a tld 25 ;)
And if we go by the tune pens forget using a rod as many here on the forum can tell you
Tell you what Noel, if you buy the TLD25 or if you really want to spend more $$ the TLD30II, and you repeatedly come across big fish, I will lend you my Penn International 50V Wide on a 50/80lbs rod and you can try to your heart's content!
The only reasons I would choose a TLD30II over the TLD25 is if I wanted to do some jigging without buying another reel and then you could utilise the more versatile gear ratio's of the TLD30II High 4.0:1 Low 1.7:1 or if I found a great deal on ebay.
example: http://stores.ebay.com/SHIMREELS-TACKLE_Big-Game-Trolling-Reels_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZQ2d1QQfsubZ5QQftidZ2QQtZkm
TLD 25 $160
TLD 30II $240
Ok guys.. just didn't want to make a bad decision and wanted to know a bit more about reels.. Thanks for your help..
Skip at the moment not even the small fish are coming across ;)
I was gonna mention that noel but kept it aside :P
@ skip they were following the tuna, but still the tld25 holds 600yrds of 30lb line which is still quite a lot!! they were using mono and were trying to do a new IGFA record. do you know if in malta there are any IGFA members??
and skip regards the tldII, it is suitable for jigging!! there are 3 main reasons:
-if you go for a multiplier jigging reel it must be an N version it is very important and usually a size 16, like the trinidad / torsa 16N.
-it is too heavy for a jigging reel
-and finally its gear ratio is not high enough, it must be at least 5:1 like the tld star 15/30 (not the 20/40 since it is too wide) or the 2 reels i mentioned above which if im not mistaken have an approx. 6:1 ratio
As far as I know there is no IGFA body here in Malta, not sure about paid up members, there might be a couple. I doubt that the TLD25 they were using was standard....it had probably been fully worked, drag, bellevilles etc, as I dont think (but I dont know) that IGFA rules restrict you from hot-rodding your reel so long as you stick to the line class. They may do as I know they are very strict with the line, one would have to read up, still I don't pay much attention to one off's done for records as they are rarely what one would encounter in real life situations, though still impressive.
As to whether the TLDII can be used for jigging, again we go back to the whole issue of over fixating what we can and can't do with a reel! No idea what an N version is nor would i bother with a size 16 trinidad/torsa unless I was out jigging every day or for several hours a go. Too heavy I don't think you mean physical weight because I was jigging with a full aluminium 30wide reel, you just wont spend so long. As for gear ratio there are no hard and fast rules, anything over 5 is idea, 6 even better but again all this is translating to is less effort for the angler and more action on the lure.
Compared to a 3.6:1 or similar straight trolling reel like the TLD25, the II series offer some more versatility, but you're not going to call them a jigging reel, but I'd happily use them for a spot of jigging here and there.
skip N stands for narrow version. if you go for a jigging multiplier it must be narrow even if it holds less line!!
during your jigging action you cannot give attention to how the line is spooling up and with an Wide of normal version you will have problems, on the otherhand, in an N version the line will be layed on the spool much better while jigging.
Yes skip i was referring to the physical weight!! The problem isn't if you just jig for 30minutes but if you are going to try to spend a day jigging. The weight of the tackle is of extreme importance in jigging. It is one of the disadvantages of the Saltiga when compared to a Stella. Even if the Saltiga is more heavy duity and has a stronger drag (if not mistaken about a max of 30Kg) it weighs more than the Stella and even a difference of 100g in your tackel's weight will have a great difference
Have you tried the new B series Shimano Spheros, like the 14000FB? Far more affordable than the Stella or the Saltiga both very nice but high end spinning reels.
Thanks for the N clarification. Over in the US they use things like the Spheros for jigging/popping....again I doubt spending all day doing it but more than 30 minutes and seem to report back well. Here I haven't seen a decent range of jigging rods at all. Check out OTI rods :)
Hi guys,on this question of jigging reels,if i can add my little bit please.First,what size fish are you targetting because what i see is the size of fish are not monsters like twoutes catches in austrailia,in excess of 1000lbs.I realise that you could catch an enormouse fish but what are the chances of this happening?2nd if you use heavy gear your going to be worn out jigging that heavy stuff.3rd if you are worried about the line laying on the reel get a reel with a levelwind fitted to it.I have just bought a okuma MG30LS levelwind reel.It has a 6.2-1 gear ratio and holds 280yds 25 lbs line which i will use mainly for beach casting but i will also use it for jigging.it should handle fish up to 70 to 80lbs and i don,t think i will be lucky to catch anything bigger than that.Now trolling well thats a different story. Just my thoughts guys,back in febuary. ;D
Hey redbus9, you are right about the level wind, however most heavy duity reels don't have a level wind, and no jigging multiplier reel does as far as i know!!
skip spheros are good reels for jigging however they are not actually jigging reels. they are spinning reels, even used to fish tuna using poppers. shimano have mainly 4 fixed spool reels for jigging to which the speros is in fact included, these are the StellaSW, Saragosa, NaviPG and the Spheros.
at the moment i have an okuma eclipz 65, its a fixed spool reel and have used it for trolling even alungi, now i am going to give it a try for jigging
Got the TLD30 2 speed today.. Feels good with the rod.. good weight.. and when cranking you can feel the you have one solid thing you can rely on..
Very happy with the choice..
Now let's hope King Neptune sends some good fish this year to test it ;)
Thanks for your help guys :)
Where did you end up buying the TLD30II from as that was quick?! I'm guessing locally?
Yes locally.. the price was worthed in my opinion.. after comparing with online stores,postage,etc.. the forum discount helped too.. :)
@Solid reel..Personally in my opinion the most solid and robust reels which can take the load are penn senators ! i own 2..and i can say that they are worthy !
Senators can take a reasonable load but they are still a post based design. If you dismantle a Senator you have the two sideplates and in between metal horizontal posts. Under heavy line pressure those posts and the start to twist/warp. They are solid for the type of fishing we get here and robust due to their simplistic design inside. Certainly the only star drag reel I would choose.