The Gaffer's water barrier is compromised. As soon as she was on the road trailer today, I could see that part of the water barrier was peeling off the gelcoat. This water barrier, by West Systems, has been there for 6 seasons now. It all needs to come off as I'm sure some water would have seeped in between the barrier and the gelcoat. That's an open invitation to trouble (osmosis) if that water is left there and trapped with a new barrier coating. So, all the barrier, including the one still adhering to the hull, has to come off!.
This is where I need your help. Any volunteers for this task?. If its four of us including me, we can take 1/4 of the hull each, and in a day, it would be ready. Anybody willing to help out, get your vibrators, orbital sanders, scrapers...anything to sand down the barrier. It should be a fun day, the_Gaffer will provide food and drinks!
I will be applying the same West System barrier again. But thats another story.
The_Gaffer will not forget your kind generosity, and will surely offer the 1st trip for Alungi on the house!!!
It should be a fun day, the_Gaffer will provide food and drinks!
Wowwwwww that's great fun ;) :D :) Joking mate!!!!
Good idea The_Gaffer! Hope you get your volunteers.... If they are any surplus, I'm sanding the antifouling! :-)
Me too..very soon!! ;) :D ;D
Usually you only remove everything completely if you're riddled with blisters. From what I read on West Systems site and online, if you have a patch that can be easily done, you just open up the area around it, down the glass fiber, let it dry out and then rebuild up. In terms of you worrying about water seeping between the barrier and the gelcoat, remember that many boats don't even use an anti-osmosis treatment and run for years! My inclination would be a total strip if you had problems all around, as West Systems should last far more than 6 seasons. Did you have any blisters or just a bonding issue?
Where abouts have you lost adhesion? Is it within the bilge area or a dry area when looking at it from the inside. One of the most important things is keeping the interior as dry as possible especially in bilge areas, places where there are water tanks that might leak. The recommended minimum is 20-mil barrier coat thickness, which should only need topping up if you have sanded the hull down alot. Each season when you do the antifouling do you sand it all off or just remove the top layer of previous antifouling?
It could be you have an isolated problem which can easily be repaired and then whilst you're at it you could always remove all the antifouling and apply another 2 coats of West Systems, but removing West Epoxy by hand will be very interesting!
If you're going down to the base gelcoat I would seriously consider soda blasting. A guy recently set himself up with the proper system which isn't invasive like sand blasting, uses bicarbonate of soda and gives you a nice even blast without the dangers associated with sand, I would be hesitant myself to sand down that far manually as I'd be worried about uneveness etc.
I found this guide quite interesting to reference http://209.20.76.247/ss/assets/howto-pub2/Gelcoat%20Blisters%20Diagnosis%20Repair%20and%20Prevention.pdf
I wouldnt dream of sanding down the west system its like sanding glass. Joe just clean the area and glass paper the rest for good adhesion and do the whole bottom with west system
Tony the problem seems that the West System 6 coat that was applied didn't bond well to the gelcoat. In fact gaffer managed to remove a whole section just with a scraper which is a bit worrying.
However I tend to agree about the sanding glass issue! Hence I was thinking Soda Blasting
These are the guys who got the system from the US now in Malta http://www.sodablastmalta.com/
that dosnt sound good does it? West system is usually very reliable, I wonder why it didnt bond? yep i agree there are more than one that does soda blasting.
You sure more than one that does Soda? As far as I know lots do sand blasting but not Soda blasting. You can't just use Bicarb of soda in a regular sandblasting machine.
put me down for a couple of hours, nothing much to do at moment.
mike d better contact Joe (The gaffer)
Can you please inform when you intent to start this operation? I might find some time to give a helping hand.
as long as i don't come in contact with fibre glass particles you can count me in. but i don't have any tools, just let me know Gaffer
same here bro - fibrelass is a nono - tools i dont have but willing to help....
Jo i would really check out the soda blasting, u loose nothing to check might not be that expensive,
Update
Jonathan and myself spent a day on the boat yesterday, removing the water barrier on The Gaffer. We managed to remove 2/3 of the stuff from the hull using walpaper scrapers. Hull is still in tip top condition, so no signs of damage ;D
On Saturday will continue to remove the 1/3 thats left. Then off with all below the waterline fittings, a good sanding down of the gelcoat...thorough wash down with soap and water, good clean wipe with a special liquid spirit, and proceed to apply West System barrier coating again.
Jonathan spoke to a local professional about possible reasons why this happened in the 1st place, and the guy suggests that:
1. West System epoxy should have been applied once the Gelcoat had cured and not when it was still tacky.
2. The Gelcoat may have been contaminated and thus prevented a perfect bond with the WS epoxy
3. When I originally applied the 1st of 6 coats of epoxy, I mixed in a colouring additive with the 1st coat to enable me to differentiate between the epoxy (which is clear) and the gelcoat (white). This additive, which is a west system product also, might have prevented the epoxy from bonding with the gelcoat
Meantime, we did take some pictures of the barrier peeling off, which I'll send to West Systems together with the facts when I applied the original epoxy barrier to get their valued opinion on how not to repeat this saga
Wrote to West Systems in the UK and already received a response. This is what I call customer service. Nothing but the best for the best ;)
HI Joe,
Thank you for sending the pictures and the film.
We must ask you exactly what the first layers of coating were?
It looks to me as if there is no bond in these white layers of coating
in which case we must establish whether they are all WEST SYSTEM.
If you are able to send us a sample of the peeled Epoxy we can then
analyse it in our laboratory and understand more.
We only require a small piece in an envelope.
You said on the phone you applied two coats of gel coat and then the six
layers of epoxy
If this gel coat was a polyester based product which was not fully cured
before the application of the epoxy then here may be where the problem
is.
We trust that this information meets your requirements and if you need
any further information please do not hesitate to contact us.
Regards,
Philip Aikenhead.
Technical / Marketing Assistant.
Wessex Resins & Adhesives Limited.
Needless to say, I'll be poping down to the boatyard today to collect a sample of the removed layers and send it by post ASAP. Will keep you all informed on the story as it develops!
Wow impressive stuff and serious customer service.
Alot of the osmosis barrier protection products recommend that a new hull has cured for at least 1 month before application, not sure about West Systems but looks like the case as well.
Keep us posted.
Another response, this time by West Systems in the USA. West Systems should be very proud of its customer service dept, its second to none!!
Joseph:
The gel coat that you applied just prior to applying our epoxy- was it polyester gel coat? If it was, I think you will find the adhesion problem will be the point where the epoxy met the ?still tacky? polyester gel coat. Epoxy cures fine over tacky gel coat but the gel coat will not continue to cure under the epoxy. So my guess is that this is the layer where the lifting has occurred. I?m actually surprised that it stayed attached so long.
When polyester gel coat is removed from a fiberglass boat in preparation for barrier coating with epoxy, we recommend applying the epoxy directly to the abraded fiberglass laminate rather than applying polyester gel coat first. This is because epoxy adheres better to sanded fiberglass laminate than the gel coat does and because polyester gel coat will not finish curing in the presence of epoxy.
Once you finish peeling away the epoxy barrier coats be sure to abrade the gel coat aggressively (removing it completely would be best) and make sure you give the hull time to dry well before applying the epoxy barrier coats.
I hope this information has been helpful.
Best regards,
Tom Pawlak
Technical Service
It seems that the problem lies with the fact that I used a polyester based gelcoat. Both technical services centres are agreeing that the use of polyester gelcoat caused the bonding problem. My best option now is to remove the remaining WS epoxy barrier left, sand down the gelcoat, and start applying the West System epoxy again.
Interesting learning experience for all this one as I think most gelcoats one purchases are polyester based, so it seems allowing it to fully cure for an extended period of time is necessary though I don't think most of us would have known that.
How thick do you reckon the gelcoat that you applied is? Are you going to sand with a rotary sander or have it sandblasted off? If using a rotary sander be careful to maintain the shape of the hull especially where you have strakes etc.
Also good to know that whenever there appear to be gelcoat issues, manufacturers of anti-osmosis systems recommend removing the gelcoat in the area where the anti-osmosis system will be applied. They also stress alot the need to ensure that once removed you allow sufficient time for the exposed laminate to dry after a thorough washing/cleaning with the appropriate liquid.
great customer support from West Systems! My 2p worth is take your time to do it Joe and don't rush the procedure. I think I understand you'll be dieing to launch again but have some patience.... On the other hand we can look at the bright side and might have a couple of extra alungi :-)
yeah benri make him stay on land as much as possible so we can catch some before he comes over eh...........yea Joe dont rush it, its better if u let the summer sun of August dry the boat........
Well thanks to the info above, the line I'm thinking of taking looks like a good one.
excellent costomer service!
Good one benri :) ;) :D ;D
Guys this is what the forum is all about. Sharing knowledge and experience with each other so that we can all learn and benefit
An Update.
Well, The Gaffer underwent a sodablast to remove the remaining epoxy from the hull. This revealed some slight pitting of the hull, which for a 31yr old hull, is very normal. No osmosis blisters were found, A surveyor's test was carried out to establish the humidity level of the hull, this turned out normal. We did this test to establish 2 points.
(1) That no seawater had penetrated the barrier,
(2) before work can start on the hull, the hull must be absolutely dry, i.e. registering about 2-3% humidity level.
So yesterday, I filled in all the pit holes with west system low density filler mixed with epoxy, and also smoothed out the uneven surface left over by the sodablast using the low density paste. Now on Tuesday, I'll sand down the excess filler using 80 grit sand paper, and fair off the rest of the hull to produce a dull finish and remove the glaze from the epoxy. If conditions are right on Tuesday/Wednesday, i.e. Sun is shining, little or no wind, and relative humidity is low, I will apply the 6 barrier coats of west system epoxy.
In the meantime, on Saturday I'll cut and polish the rest of the hull above water. The gelcoat on the hull has oxidised to the extent that no amount of polishing can restore the shine back. So, I'll remove the oxidised gelcoat with 400grit sand paper using an orbital sander. Then, using 1000 grit sand paper, wet sand the gelcoat to remove the orbital sander's rotating marks. Buff the gelcoat with G3-G6 compound and finish off with a buffer polish using a teflon based wax-polish system.
Project is progressing according to plan, and the Gaffer should be in the water by end on May/1st week of June
good luck.......
Great news Joe and good luck for the remaining jobs.
No need to rush yourself by the way..... :-) More haste less speed they say.... in September it's still summer :-)
Thanks Guys. I admit she's an old boat, but way back in the late 70's they did not compromise on material usage. She's a fine sturdy boat, built to last a lifetime. The Trojan F-26 project was undertaken by Whittaker and Bertram in the 70's, and produced over 2,000 boats in this class. In 1969 the needed financial backing came in the form of a buy-out by the Whittaker Corporation. The Trojan acquisition was one of a number of boat businesses that Whittaker bought at that time, with a plan, ?What GM did for cars, Whittaker were going to do for boats. They were a little ahead of their time.?
The original Trojan Yacht Company of Lancaster, Pennsylvania ended production in 1992. Miramar Marine, later known as Genmar, owner of Carver Boats, purchased the Trojan Boat brand name and assets. Genmar Holdings, Inc., the largest independent manufacturer of recreational powerboats in the world, located in Pulaski, Wisconsin, produces motor yachts with the Trojan name through its Carver Yachts subsidiary. Carver still produce Trojans, but on in the 44 to 55 foot range.
There is a modern Trojan 44 footer at the Msida marina, powered by twin Caterpillars. That boat and mine are the only trojans in Malta.
Some great reading The_Gaffer. Interesting history. Nowadays it is a must to compromise on material usage due to increase in prices of raw materials. I doubt we will ever again see the sturdy quality of the "olden days" in cars, boats and all. Did you buy The_Gaffer locally or import her?
I shipped her all the way from Savannah Giorgia USA. In 2002, I decided to move up to a bigger boat, I had a Bucanneer 205 with an Iveco 130 HP marine diesel engine. I searched the net and came across the Trojans. I got particulary attracted to an advert on Boattrader online, for an F-26 (F=Flybridge) for sale in Savannah. I got in touch with my compay's shippers, P&0 Nedloyd, and requested a quote. Luckily for me, they operated out of Savannah Giorgia and proceeded to contact the seller. He could not believe me at 1st. I told him I was for real, and would soon send a surveyor over to inspect the boat. I also engaged the services of a solicitor in Savannah to prepare the legal documents and open a bank account to send over the money. When I received the OK from the surveyor, I asked the solicitor to draw up a promise of sale, and wired the deposit to the account. Meanwhile I received the quote from the shippers, and accepting their quote, made arrangements to get the boat safely shrink wrapped and mounted on a cradle which was then mounted on a flatrack. This facilitates the trasfer of the boat from the marina to the harbour.
As soon as that was finalised and the boat was safely secured to the ship, I instructed the solicitor to release the payment to the seller and at that point the Gaffer, still in the US port, was mine. Shipping duration was 12 days, and sure enough, on the 12th day the ship sailed into Freeport at M'xlokk with a trojan at the top!.
That is a very short version of how I aquired the Gaffer....I left out numerous email correspondence, telephone calls to the seller and agents for shipping, shrink wrap, securing to craddle, US Cast guard authorities to get the boat de registered in the US, and also making sure that there was no claim on the boat. All in all, a great experience...and would do it again someday as I'm dreaming lately of moving a bit upward in size.
I have my eyes on a 33 footer sport fisher Bertram, the queen of the seas. This boat is certified as offshore Cat 'C', i.e. in US terms, it is allowed to fish the Grand Banks, some 150miles off the coast of the US in the Atlantic....and beleive me, I have seen footage of this boat in very rough weather (F-6 to 7) and still rushing through the waves headon at 25knts. That however is very conditional in me selling the Gaffer, which at present, I would not accept anything less then 50,000 Euros.
Joe, great read and nice update. With the current economic situation especially in the boat world, existing owners have to hang on to their boats as they will get no where near their asking price....new boats are being sold at 30% discount, leaving second hand boats with a similar plight to second hand cars at the moment, 50-70% off their expected value, effectively meaning giving them away! So if you don't need the money hang on to your boats.
Hi Gaffer,
I have read you interesting article especially on the tools you plan to utilise. As some may know I work in the tool sector importing and reselling both hand tools and powerr tools. I just wanted you to know that whilst utilising a rotary sander especially on the boats and wood utilise an industrial hoover as this will increase the tools ventilation and will ensure that no residuals are on the bearings. 98% of the faults are due to bearing failures.
Thanks Mellieha. I just bought a small angle grinder. If I'd known before, you'd be the man to do business with. However, now that I know, I'll keep you in mind 8)
Hi Gaffer
It is the queen of the sea the bertram 33. I had the opportunety to go shark fishing competition sevearl times on a bertramm 33 powerd with two V8 cummins.We left from free port long iland new york 4-5 f doing 30 knots. It is a great boat.
Here's the latest update on the works:
Follwoing the sodablast, I filled in all pits, uneven surfaces with West System epoxy and low density filler. 5 days later, using an orbital sander, I faired down the excess filler. In between the five days, so as not to waste time, I gave the gelcoat hull a cut and polish. A cut means that I sanded down the hull with 400 grit sandpaper, then proceeded with 1,000 grit water sand down, then G6 buffer and polish. I had to sand off all the oxidised gelcoat. 31 years is a long time. I wouldn't say the sides are now optimum, but they're much brighter then they ever were. Next was a good wash down with a power wash water gun and left the hull to dry for a further 2 days. On Friday, I proceeded to apply the 6 epoxy water barrier coats and 1 copper based epoxy coat. These 6 coats have to be applied in succession. The 1st coat is a mixture of epoxy and hardner only. Subsequent coats you add the West System barrier powder. With each subsequent coat, you always add a little more barrier powder. The last and final coat is a mixture of epoxy and hardner to which you add the copper based powder. This is effective as a primer coat for antifouling. We had a sort of scare on the 3rd coat. While applying the 3rd coat, the 2nd coat was drying out rapidly. I had to call in some help to finish the 3rd coat, otherwise the 2nd coat would have dried up, effectively meaning that I would have had to stop all the work, allow the 2nd coat to dry completely, sand down to remove the epoxy glaze, and restart the coatings. It is important that between coats the hull remains tacky, just dry enough to hold the weight of the newly applied coat, but not dry enough to NOT allow a sufficient bond to take place between coats. ;)
Today I fiited on all underwater fittings which I had removed to allow for a good cover with the water barrier. These included the rudder fittings, trim tabs, all water, WC and drain outlets. Tomorrow The Gaffer is back on the road trailer, followed by a good washdown with soap and water. Next is to apply a teflon based polish to all the exposed areas, a final hull polish and wax, engine service (oil and fuel filter change, and an oil change) a coat of antifouling, fit on the outriggers, and we're ready to go in the 1st week of June!!!!
Great news The_Gaffer. Glad you sorted everything out - and right on time too!
Well done Gaffer. Was the epoxy applied by brush or roller?
The Epoxy is applied by roller Mario. Also, you have to change rollers every so often as the epoxy starts to set.
Project successfuly delivered!!!
As of yesterday, The Gaffer is in the sea again, lying at her berth in Msida Pontoons. Its been a terrific 2 months, but alls well that ends well. Special thanks goes to Jonathan, who dedicated a whole day t owork on the Gaffer, scrapping off the old epoxy.
Planned projects for the coming winter:
The Gaffer comes out of the water early, sometime in October 09.
All interior linings (tapizerija) and teak wood comes off too.
Strip off all wiring
Install complete 12v DC wiring on the boat, complete with new MCB's distribution panel - Blue systems distribution panel
New interior finish.
New teak lining and furniture
The hull finish of the Gaffer is now showing her age. Like a graceful lady, although still attractive, she needs some makeup to restore her shine. I have been pondering this for ages, give the hull a new paint job, I guess the time is now right. After 32 yrs, no amount of cut and polish can restore the gleam she once so proudly displayed. I'll be using either International's Perfection paint, or Awlgrip. Both are 2 part marine paints, Awlgrip the more expensive, but with better reviews for duration. The main question which gives me sleepless nights (and I'm not kidding either) is the hull colour. It will be either white, or marine blue. My heart tells me marine blue, my common sense and logic goes for white. The blue will attract the heat more, rendering the paint more prone to becoming dull, however, I have seen blue hulls on sport fishers, and they look fantastic. Also, because the blue will be sprayed onto the hull, a deep scratch to the hull will reveal the white underneath. Whereas the white colour, well, what can I say, white is beautiful as well, however, same colour. I really don't know ??? ???
What do you guys think?
I would definitely go for the white. Still nice in the eyes but more practical. Also white is easier to repair for the same reasons.
I would go for Blue even if white is 100% much more practical.
why go for blue fishfinder?
It was my pleasure to help you out a bit Gaffer - that was just a small token of appreciation for the great fishing experiences which your boat has given Kathleen & myself :)
As for hull colour I can speak from my experience on sailing boats.
In my opinion, nothing looks nicer than a dark navy blue hull... but....
... on boats which are in the water and sun for most of the year (unlike trailered boats which spend most of the time in a grage), blue hulls tend to fade within a period ranging from 3 years for the poorest of gelcoats to around 10 years for the best of coats. Some boat owners try to delay this effect by laying a topside cover over their boat (either the cheap green gardening mesh or more expensive sunbbrella material).
If I were you I would consider the number of years ahead for which you intend keeping the boat and the expense / work involved in spraying the boat (in view of a possible repeat in 5-10yrs), then decide accordingly.
Thanks Jonathan. Looking forward to some thrills this year too.
I've always been facinated by navy blue hulls. Gives the boat a certain look. I am aware of the downside as well. I've already got a quote from a spray painter...it'll cost me Eur:815 just for the works. I figure another Eur 300 for paint. Maximum life is between 6 and 10 years, depending on the paint used, care, exposure to direct sunlight. But I've seen some beauties painted in navy blue...Sunseeker and Fairline come to mind, with a top deck in white!!!
I love that dark navy 'sunseeker' blue nothing looks better, just have a look at the White Shark next to you Joe as I saw her having her hull buffed this week.
If you want to see how International Perfection faired over the years, we sprayed my dads boat with it, sunseeker blue and offwhite on the main part. Preparing the surface is essential and so is a good sprayer which we didn't have, but you can see how it held up to the sun and elements. I think pretty well so far.
Awlgrip is considered to be alot better.
White is practical, dark blue is sexy......heq you have to weight them up!!
I'd go for sexy :D
SEXY all the way ;D
I used perfection on the upper deck and F/B. I rolled and tipped. Its a great paint. However, i'm inclined to use al grip for the hull.
Gaffer, I like the colour blue on boats. It gives them a sort of richness and a fantastic look. I have a Dark Navy blue boat and it's true that it tends to fade in the sun and tiny scratches will look bigger but still if I have to buy another one I would buy it again Dark Blue. This Year I've changed a lot of things on my boat (actually exerything :P) and one of my projects was a new sun shade and a boat cover for when it's on mooring and I've chosen the LUNA BLUE and the boat matched perfectly with the Navy Blue.
If I'm not mistaken in Usa Blue boats cost a lot much more money cause the blue is the most richest gelgoat you can buy.
that's my opinion and Good look but the gaffer will look much more sexy in Blue after all white fades to yellowish any way.
I totally agree with fishfinder on this one, white will turn yellowish anyway and blue...... well just one word... "Elegance"
You should start a poll on this one....hehe ;)
The boat i had before was Blue hull and white top. Now its white with a large dark blue stripe. I like them boat ??? both but I think I prefer white with a touch of Blue.
Hi
The gaffer looks very good in white.It look long and smooth in the pic at blue lagon.The blue is nice color too, but you have to see if it makes her sorth and high, witch i think you don't want that.