Hi All,
I'm trying to compile some hands on information from those people who go trolling with their boats specifically those who have outboards larger than say 40-50hp.
Basically I think it would be useful to ascertain the behaviour of outboards when used for extended periods of time at low rpms as one does when trolling. How do two-strokes behave versus four-strokes, and which are better. What problems are there with either type.
Skip
Hi Skip. Very interesting subject which unfortuantely has too many opinions. My boat is equipped with a 90HP 2 stroke johnson outboard with VRO. Many people tell me that I will do very bad to the motor if I troll with it and on the other hand others tell me that since it's VRO I can do all the trolling that I like! I got totally mixed up and decided to try and buy an aux. 6 to 8hp motor for trolling but now I'm in the same dilemma... 2 stroke or 4 stroke small motor or else nothing and troll with the big one?....
I will try and do some research but most smaller outboards were always 2 stroke and 4's weigh alot. At best I reckon keep a spare set of spark plugs on board coz all you really do when trolling is potentially foul the plugs as not all the fuel gets burnt. However I reckon if every couple of hours you take the boat up on the plane for a few mins you clear it all out and can go back to trolling. Furthermore with modern ECM (ECU) controlled outboards the outboard is adjusting the fuel/air mix all the time as opposed to outboards that have carbs which is fixed. Plus certain boats were not designed to accomodate the weight of a 4 stroke on the transom, so also be carefull adding an aux motor depending on how close you are to the max hp recommendation which here you would be focussing on transom weight.
Skip
hi there,
i had a 90hp nissan and a 9.9.hp for trolling on my old boat and never had any trouble with either and used to troll on either one depending on the sea,or wind like skip said if u then plain the boat then u have no problems, now with the new boat i have a 200hp mercury and a 18hp nissan and i tell you i dont dare use the 200 hp for trolling, as first of all it (200hp ) stalls on slow speed and when it doesnt then the petrol is being sucked out of the tank quicker than i can fill it, so i use the 18hp for trollling either at 5.knots or 6.5 knots and i forget to fill its tank as it harldy wastes compared with the 200hp, for your information the only problem is the noise i wish i had a 4 stroke, as the guy next to me on the pontoon has both a 150hp and a 9.9 both 4 stroke and he leaves the engens on and what he uses in three outings i use in one (comparable). otherwise everthing is a o.k.
Hey Visa see if anyone wants to buy a 200HP mercury.
Thanks for all the great info guys. I wish I was knowledgeable enough to give back some info to pay back all of you but, since I'm very new I'm sorry I cannot! All I can give you advice about is maybe first aid and medicines :-)! Well, back to the subject nowadays all small engines are available in 4 stroke as from next year it will be illegal to import new 2 strokes into Malta due to enviroment issues - therefore what's here is here. From what I read and gathered 4 strokes have more torque but less acceleration therefore they are ideally to troll with. On the other hand 4 strokes are heavier and much more expensive initially.
Surprised about the illegal to import 2 strokes. I think that would probably be illegal to import small basic two strokes that don't meet emission regulations within the EU. That basically boils down to the smaller carb controlled engines, because the Evinrude ETECs are two strokes up to 250hp, computer controlled and have lower emissions that most four strokes, at least that's what Bombardier say.
Visa which Merc 200 do you have on the back? Is it an Optimax Direct Injected 3.0L 200hp ?? The current 2008 200HP Merc Optimax which is very similar in operation to the ETEC and totally computer controlled shows much better fuel consumption than both the Yamaha HDPI VMAX and the ETEC http://www.mercurymarine.com/look_deeper/head_to_head.php?ID=58&Filter=7
I thought the computer controlled big two strokes were fine at low rpm's, surprised to hear yours doesnt like it / stalls, so curious to know the exact model.
Skip
hi skip,
to correct myself not the motor doesnt like to troll slow but me with the merc 200, the stalling piece is its o.k. trolling at 6, 7, 8 knots but as soon as u go lower it splutters and goes off but to troll slowly its o.k. my merc is direct injected saltwater v6 today trolled with it for over two and a half hour as needed to boost the battries (in the meantime used about one third of my fuel tank) as they went dead on me due to the rain during the past three weeks and pump was working without any recharging, so they let me down, but RMF Gozo saved the day and they came down to port and gave me a battery boster to start the engin. my thanks go to Joe Buhagar of gozo RMF.
In my opinion, the best Motors out there for trolling are the eTecs. Probably Gottie can support that as he's got one. They have been designed with trolling in mind, and they are extremely fuel efficiemt on very low revs.
To give you an idea, last summer I left Gnejna with a friend of mine. He's got a 90Hp, while I have a 2 year old Johnson 9.9hp 2 stroke. Although we left together, he was on the albie hot spot 25 mins before me (Took him 15mins). We trolled all day. At the end of the day, back in Gnejna, he had used 20 litres of fuel (Lm9), while I needed 29 litres. Considering the comfort he had, an eTec is definitely a good investment. I am personally waiting for the smaller models to come out, hopefully this summer. Then I'll go for a 25hp with a tiller arm.
as everyone knows my boat is on the hard and what happens after waiting for three weeks for a nice weekend, excatly what i feared would happen as soon as the boat is up the wind dies down and the sea is going to be beautiful weekend for fishing so now just wishing i left it longer. :'(
Hi John,
Isn't your boat on a trailer? Would have thought you could have launched it for a quickie over the weekend, though on second thoughts 24 foot boats probably needs at least a landrover if not something heavier to pull it?
Skip
no beautiful weakend for fishing visa another windy week. force 6-7 for weekend
yep u are right, the last time i looked at the wind on the seven day forcast it was all blue and wind in the 6/7 knots but having had a look again today after your reply the outlook changed completly, pehaps to make me feel good.
Once on the hard i start working on the boat immeditaly, i have already taken batteries for a full service and charge, booked the mechanic for winterr service, jacked the boat on stones so as not to leave on the tyres, etc etc, one of the things i want to do this winter is make some sort of shore power, since my boat is berted on the poontoon in gozo have power supply , so if anyone can give me idea, what i need, would appricate it very much, something like to keep batteries charged , the blidge pump to work on shore power when berted and keep the cooler working 24/7 i saw something on the web but cant remember where.
Putting in basic shore power is very easy. Marine outlet somewhere near the back, good quality 3 core electricity cable (ideally with the black jacket) running to ELCB, MCB, circuit switch inside a waterproof box. From there you come out with where you want your power inside the boat. ie. in our case we have a wire from the circuit switch straight to a battery charger input which takes 230V and outputs up to 40 amps DC over 2 connections allowing you to have two sets of batteries charging. I used a Mastervolt available from Strand Marine and have had no problems with it.
That way we can leave our fridge and freezer on 24/7 which draw say 15-20amps max when plugged into shore power and know that the other 20 amps is being used to charge the batteries. Mastervolt are fully automatic with voltage and temperature sense plus smart control, so it keeps your batteries on float mode when fully charged.
Your bilge pump would work from the batteries which in turn would be kept charged by the charger connected to shore power.
Skip
thanks for info will go see what strand marine has and check it out, thats what i was looking for the name its mastervolt, will also check out my supplier, i use Sea Link in griza, what he does not have hell get you.
Hi all
On the web I recently came across electric trolling motors! Has anyone seen any of them locally? what are your opinions?
I used them on the lake never seen any used in saltwater. They are good to move from one spot to another not for continuous trolling at least the one I had. Mind you this is 20 years back (wow time flies doesnt it, it only seems yesterday that i left USA). They would be a drain on the battery as well so u have to think in that direction as well.
Hope to hear different opinion on this as things might have changes since last time i used them.
From the reviews I read they are still meant for lakes on very small boats. With our winds and currents I dont think they would be much use, unless on a very small boat inside the ports/harbours where perhaps the lack of noise is a plus. But battery drain is still quite high.
have checked for shore power, quite a varity in stock in two different places however price is quite high for the basic model charging two battries lm 81.00 did not check strand marine yet as thought he was in griza but found out it is in qormi! Is that right?? can anyone pls direct me to them???
Hi. Strand Marine have a website and there is a map and directions under location. http://www.strandmarinemalta.com/
They are just opposite Flamingo on the road leading to the Mriehel Bypass.
Automatic battery chargers are not cheap. Lm81 doesn't seem bad at all, the mastervolt series are likely to be more.
Based on busumark's excellent link http://www.oceanskiffjournal.com/SubscriberContent/Articles/Vol01Issue05/General/ETEC1.aspx which I have just finished reading in full, I think it's time everyone adjusts their thinking that modern two strokes are no good for trolling. Evinrude e-tec's, Mercury Optimax's, and Yamaha HDPI's which are all modern EMM/ECM controlled two strokes, they run at low rpms used for fishing just fine and comparable to the 4 strokes. Interestingly as cited in the article, 4 strokes idle much quieter so that may be a plus point when fishing.
But I think what the article really highlights, is that modern engines, be it 2 stroke Etec type or 4 stroke fuel consumption is basically the same, but does vary depending on the hull, trim, prop selection and engine size. Maybe smaller boats benefit from the lighter etec's versus heavier 4 strokes, but I think in the 100hp+ range their are more or less the same.
So I think what we should REALLY be focusing on now, is the level of dealer support in MALTA and whether their mechanics are genuinely factory trained and certified. I think this seems to be what makes or breaks the whole experience and ordeal of boating. And certainly this is one are where I don't have any up to date data.
This one is open to discussion but I am considering officially contacting Gasan (Yamaha), RLR (Evinrude), MM2 Ltd (Mercury), Suzuki (Zarb Stores) and asking them to provide an official response concerning their service status, ideally with documentation showing their certification levels.
What do you think and what are you personal experiences?
it will be a good idea to contact these agents. i had a 2 stroke nissan 18hp and after only 6yrs this summer i had a hole in the block. about LM350 to fix it. when i went to jupiter in mosta he told me it happened because you have to open the engine every 2yrs to clean it make new gaskets and lot of bullshit. i dont recomend anyone to buy anything from him. and his prices are more than other agents. sold the nissan for parts. now i have a 2-stroke 25hp mariner. till now i am very happy with it and even the agent is ok
That place, Jupiter looks from the outside like its basically out of business. Once upon a time they seemed to do quite well but not anymore! And based on the way they treated you, not surprising.
Just to add to this post, larger two strokes use around 2.57 litres per hour (90hp), whereas a similar hp four stroke uses around 0.87litres per hour and a Direct Injection engine like the TLDI, ETEC, Optimax closer to 0.57 litres per hour.
Visa, you should definately consider re-powering to a 4 stroke or if you don't want to add weight compared to your current engine, a 200 ETEC or Optimax or twin 115 TLDI's.
After doing some further reading, I definately wouldn't use a regular two stroke for trolling (The old type not the modern direct injection, TLDI, ETEC, Optimiax etc). Not because it can't handle it, but due to fuel consumption. Obviously a smaller 2 stroke 10hp trolling engine won't appear to be using that much, but put it next to a similar hp four stroke and you'll reduce that by 2/3 !!
It will be very interesting to see and review the upcoming ETEC 9.9 which was supposed to have been released by now, but still hasn't come out. Reckon this will be a fantastic engine, weight savings and fuel economy.
I have tried trolling with my 55HP Yamaha 2 stroke, trying to keep the S.O.G. @ ~3knots, the engine didn't like it at all, the plugs oiled up & it stalled after about 10 mins, & I had a heck of a job to restart it, in the end I had to take the plugs out to dry them. :(
Nowadays I troll with my 8HP Yamaha auxillary, to get 3knots S.O.G. I have to give it a bit of rev, so it doesnt oil up at all ;)
blueskip
I was at Petecraft factory recently and they started importing new 4 stroke outboards in malta...PARSUN. They have all the mechanics based on yamaha but assembled in China, which make the outboards cheaper. Anybody tried them out for trolling? Mario said that he sold a couple of them already on various boats.....
i personally changed to 4 stroke 25 yamaha and i find it better in everything ,consumption mainly and no noise no smell.i wouldn.t goback for 2 stroke
Quote from: snafu on July 20, 2008, 13:52:25 CET
i personally changed to 4 stroke 25 yamaha and i find it better in everything ,consumption mainly and no noise no smell.i wouldn.t goback for 2 stroke
i have a yamaha 4stroke 25 and i been trolling with it for the last 2 yrs and its great no noise no smell and better fuel consumption i troll for 8 hrs forless than 2 gallons i wontgo back to 2 stroke
After testing this summer with my Tohatsu 90TLDI (ECU controlled direct injection engine) I can report that whilst consumption at trolling rpm's is pretty low, the engine, at least my engine is not happy running at lower rpm's (<2000rpm) for extended periods of time - >10mins without giving an rpm drop / hesitation before resuming.
Every time it does this I try and give it a quick burst of rpms for a few seconds to avoid over fouling the plugs. It's not that the engine stops or dies but its definately not happy.
It could be the software parameters that Tohatsu use, ETECs and Optimax's which are also DI engines seem to be okay at low rpm's for extended periods of time. Or it could be I have some kind of issue with my particular engine, the only way to know would be to compare with another 90ETEC owner.
UPDATE
At this stage it's very difficult for me to pass a fair recommendation because my engine is not 100% through not fault of Tohatsu. My ignition wiring loom has a broken retaining clip within the engine which I think is making an intermittent contact that could be accounting for my problem. Mecca have already gotten the replacement part in to stock under warranty, I just haven't had the time to pass by to sort it out.
Once that is done and I get the boat back out for a test will be able to give better advice. As you can see Kaptan Jr is very happy as are some other TLDI owners.
However if you can afford the money and can afford the extra weight on the boat, I'm inclined to say that modern four strokes are still the preferred engine for fishing related trolling activities as they have a similar fuel consumption (they still use more than most Direct Injection Engines), don't require you to purchase oil which you burn as you use it, and they are quieter than a DI engine, which might be an issue for long trolling periods.
Things I like about my Tohatsu 90 TLDI
Best purchase price to hp ratio
Lighter engine compared to other 90's
Excellent acceleration on lighter boats and they like running at 3/4 throttle giving excellent fuel consumption
Super easy starting first time with no hesitation
Excellent fuel burn figures across the rpm range even at full throttle you won't use more than 32 litres per hour confirmed by my fuel flow meter
Cruise with a heavy 18.5 foot boat at 20 knots for around 14 litres per hour burn
Long Warranty Period
i know a friend of mine who has e tec 75hp.consumpion is very good but he says that his engine is not happy trolling at low revs just like yours.surprisingly i have a 2 year old 50 hp two stroke mariner and it trolls very good for even 9 hours straight and i only changed the spark plugs after 150 hours.i even go sometimes trolling with live bait only 1.5knots just on gear and it works perfectly.
Difficult to hit the nail on its head on this issue!! As I said in a previous post elsewhere, my friend has a 50HP TOhatsu DI which does not give any trouble even though it is used for very slow speed trolling for hours at a strech. On the otherhand, skip just said that Optimax motors are not prone to this problem; a friend of mine has an optimax (if I remember sorrectly a 125hp) which is prone to fouling the plugs if left working on low revs for a prolonged period of time.
Difficult call, but I have never heard of a 4 stroke having similar problems.
Rob
Very interesting rob. Whilst the technology is the same, each engine series is designed and built differently, parts used, sofftware map etc. So perhaps one has to drill down deeper even to specific engines rather than just saying all optimaxes etc. What there does seem to be is a pattern of sorts, yet four strokes seem fine.
I still can't say for sure whether I would go down the direct injection route again for fishing. Yes for leisure on a budget without a doubt, still not sure for fishing.
Hi
check this site they have tested various engine. their reviews seem good
http://www.boatsales.com.au/ under new and reviews heading drop down list to engines.
Interesting to read that the Optimax 90 isn't considered as good as the ETEC 90 for low rpm trolling:
http://www.boatsales.com.au/boat-review/2984735.aspx
I think that correlates with the fact that DI outboards are good leisure engines but perhaps not ideally suited to fishing for extended periods of time/heavy use??. At least in the sub 100hp range. We need more reports from people to build an accurate picture.
I have a Trophy fitted with a 150 optimax which I use a lt for trolling . I find its a great outboard but I only had the boat for about 4 months so I cant really say what will it do in the long run. All I can say that during the Lampuki season I go out for about 12 hours on the go at low revs . Trophy boats and mercury suggests you get the optimax version if you are going to use the boat for fishing. My brother has a 115 yamaha 4 stroke on a 19 ft boat and it also does a good job but my brother recons the old 2 stoke were much heavt dutier outboards. I think the only drawback on the optimax is that is a load engine compared with a 4 stroke
Hi anglers, the 150 is very different to the 90 in terms of block size etc, the comment referring to the article was comparing the 90 so I wouldnt worry about yours in that sense.
Good to hear it runs well, what did you mean by load engine compared with a 4 stroke?
Btw did you buy your boat locally new?
Sorry that was a misprint. The only drawback in my opinion on the optimax is the noise, it is a loud engine compared to the 4 strokes. Yes I bought my trophy locally and I think its the only 2008 model on the island.
Ah okay makes, sense...who's the agent? Stand Marine?
The agents are Bayliner ( Glassfiber Industries ) mriehel
Guys the more information you can post about the performance of your engine the better to help build the best picture possible when looking at 2 stroke Direct Injection engines and 4 strokes, both of which are modern ECU controlled engines.
Information that would be useful to include:
Length and approx dry weight of boat
Engine size and year
Any accurate fuel burn information you have.
Your overall experience with the engine to date.
Quote from: skip on September 11, 2008, 17:10:52 CET
After testing this summer with my Tohatsu 90TLDI (ECU controlled direct injection engine) I can report that whilst consumption at trolling rpm's is pretty low, the engine, at least my engine is not happy running at lower rpm's (<2000rpm) for extended periods of time - >10mins without giving an rpm drop / hesitation before resuming.
Every time it does this I try and give it a quick burst of rpms for a few seconds to avoid over fouling the plugs. It's not that the engine stops or dies but its definately not happy.
It could be the software parameters that Tohatsu use, ETECs and Optimax's which are also DI engines seem to be okay at low rpm's for extended periods of time. Or it could be I have some kind of issue with my particular engine, the only way to know would be to compare with another 90ETEC owner.
Time to update the above.......The boat stayed in the garage for most of the winter as they invariably do and I didn't have any time to dedicate towards it. However a few weeks ago I got on the phone to Mecca Marine after receiving several reminders that the parts we thought I needed under warranty had arrived in October and had been waiting every since.
Mecca arranged to have their mechanic Robert come over and we spent a good 4 hours carefully checking over everything. Robert was very methodical in his approach and checked all the wiring carefully at the console but didn't find any issues. Initially the ignition had been suspected as being faulty so Mecca also supplied a replacement ignition just in case, but it soon turned out not to be the case after it was noted that a couple of pins in the main engine wiring loom looked suspect and perhaps weren't making a good contact.
Robert returned with a new harness and instantly confirmed this was the issue after using the onboard ECU diagnostics. We went about replacing the wiring loom which Mecca had in stock, it was quite an ordeal to pass it through the rigging tube but with some tricks of the trade we managed!!
Last Sunday there was a break in the weather and my busy schedule so I took the boat out for a test. It ran brilliantly and we did around 20 mins trolling in the rpm range that was previously giving me problems....except this time no problems whatsoever. I was running the Tohatsu TCW-3 non Bio which I prefer over the Bio and no hint of smoke at all even on acceleration so a very nice clean burn.
Alungi season is fast approaching which will mean extended trolling use for a few hours but I am now confident that I won't have any issues and my 90 TLDI has me smiling again. I like the fact that Mecca got the parts into stock really quickly in addition to some parts which i didn't end up needing but they got just in case to be sure and make sure there would be no extra downtime if they were needed.
Great Skip. Glad you managed to solve it!
Quote from: ciappinu on December 04, 2007, 18:13:59 CET
In my opinion, the best Motors out there for trolling are the eTecs. Probably Gottie can support that as he's got one. They have been designed with trolling in mind, and they are extremely fuel efficiemt on very low revs.
To give you an idea, last summer I left Gnejna with a friend of mine. He's got a 90Hp, while I have a 2 year old Johnson 9.9hp 2 stroke. Although we left together, he was on the albie hot spot 25 mins before me (Took him 15mins). We trolled all day. At the end of the day, back in Gnejna, he had used 20 litres of fuel (Lm9), while I needed 29 litres. Considering the comfort he had, an eTec is definitely a good investment. I am personally waiting for the smaller models to come out, hopefully this summer. Then I'll go for a 25hp with a tiller arm.
Hi, I order a petecraft 16ft boat and I am worried about either putting a 75 E-tec or a F70 yamaha 4s. Both motors seems very close to each other in terms of reliability etc, but I have concerns about the E-tec if used in lower RPM for trolling. Does anyone own an E-tec 75 and used for trolling? as I would like some feedback about it. thanks
Hi, i have a 90 etec on a 17ft boat (day cruiser). I have trolled for 9 hours straight with no hiccups whatsoever. appx 6/6,5 knots fuel consuption 5l per hour. oil consumption if i recall correctly using xd 50 about 1ooml per hour. crusing about 20/22 about 1,1 nautical mile per litre.
What do you guys think of a Yamaha 50HP High Thrust 4-stroke (carburetor)engine for trolling? Its fitted on a 14.5 foot boat. I have never managed to calculate the fuel consumption for it. Do you think that with low RPMs at trolling speeds I might have a sparking plug issue with carbon build-up?
I had same engine but 25hp (4 stroke). I regret that I had sold it. 4 stroke engines are the best. As for trolling, i still think that does not give any problem, but depend on what kind of troling you will be doing. Your only problem is that with a 50hp, you can t lower too much the troling speed
Hi EmicMalta, was thinking about the same thing. Next time im out ill check out the least possible trolling speed. I have a bad feeling about trolling with live bait as this requires between 0.5 - 2 knots maximum! One other thing is that I most probably need to change the propeller as at WOT with trim up im only doing 4800RPM whilst the range for that engine should be between 5000 - 6000 RPM. Reducing the pitch should get me into range and at the same time reduce speed at trolling speeds as there will be less cupping of water at low RPMs!
I stand to be corrected though. Input guys on this pitch issue versus trolling speed reduction!
Quote from: Icom on September 13, 2013, 10:58:50 CET
Hi EmicMalta, was thinking about the same thing. Next time im out ill check out the least possible trolling speed. I have a bad feeling about trolling with live bait as this requires between 0.5 - 2 knots maximum! One other thing is that I most probably need to change the propeller as at WOT with trim up im only doing 4800RPM whilst the range for that engine should be between 5000 - 6000 RPM. Reducing the pitch should get me into range and at the same time reduce speed at trolling speeds as there will be less cupping of water at low RPMs!
I stand to be corrected though. Input guys on this pitch issue versus trolling speed reduction!
If it was my boat, I would invest in a kicker outboard for this type of fishing. - You need to put some serious trolling hours in a day to expect a catch nowadays (7+ hrs) and a 50hp would have issues with live bait trolling in my humble opinion.
I had a similar issue with a 50hp eTec. Maximum RPM was at 4900 with a 17 pitch prop. Reduced the pitch to 15 and now have around 5400 rpm. I had read that each pitch reduction increases RPM by around 300 but that is of course subjective. Boat performance is also slightly better in my opinion as the front lifts much less, however I might have lost 1 or 2 knots in maximum speed, which don't really bother me on a 14 foot boat as anything above 25 knots is uncomfortable.
i troll good with my 50 honda efi as from 1 knot on 15 atom no vibration even when i go with long lines
Setting your engine up to the correct WOT is extremely important and sadly people chase pitch, causing additional wear and tear, oil and fuel usage and more on their engines by being over propped.
ICOM, Aim for 5,500 with your typical load , which means you're looking at a 3-4 inch pitch reduction which is quite a lot. Indeed you will lose some bottom end thrust which should sort your slow speed issue, but listen to the live bait experts as the ultimate set up might well be using an kicker/auxiliary and a link kit to use the main steering on the kicker.