This is what it all boils down to guys. I know there are a few ETEC lovers out there (skip, malvizzu, destination sea) but you really cannot look the other way when talking about Yamaha. This outboard will go onto a Petecraft 16 open fisher. The yamaha is impressive as a F4 weighti g in at 119kgs, just under 10ltrs/hr @ 20knts, or 13ltrs/hr at 23knts. Likewise 3ltrs an hour while trolling at 6knts is a dream come true to me. On the other hand, i have read all about the ETECs, they are revolutinary, impressive and very economical. So, guys, whats your say...
I have a yamaha 100 4 stroke fuel injection on a Petecraft 17 fast fisher open.My fishing mate has a 75 e tec on a 17 ft italian boat but much lighter than petecraft.We have been with these boats for quite a long time so my review about these motors is from past and present experience.
Going out cruising at 20 to 22 knots as for consumption they are more or less the same.When it comes to trolling yamaha is more fuel efficient.When trolling one can smell the two stroke oil being burnt on the e tec ,while with the yamaha no smell at all.Yamaha is much,much and much less noisy than e tec.
When in comes to servicing e teck does not need engine oil change and filter which on the yamaha has to be changed every 100hrs.But in those 100hrs the e tec burns 2 stroke oil which is quite expensive.E teck needs its spark plugs changed every 2 seasons to run smoothly while i never changed the plugs on the yamaha since new and works perfectly.
My choice is defenetaly yamaha,even the e tec owner says this.
I ask.....what is the advantage of an e tec over a good 4 stroke like yamaha?being 20 kg lighter?less working parts?
Also their plastic hood and covers are very brittle and crack from the bolts which tighten the lower unit
And i still have to see an e tec outboard older than 6 years without some corrosion,actually a lot of corrosion if left at sea.
Spiru, do you do trolling with your Yamaha 100HP? If you do, what knots are you making at just engaged into forward?
Fortuna had a 75HP ETEC for some years. Maybe he can give you a more unbiased review :)
Ok, here is a new piece of information.
The ETEC 75HP weighs in at 145kgs
The yamaha 70HP weighs in at 119kgs.
If you go for a yamaha 80HP, then the weight shots up to 166kgs.
Quite impressive for Yamaha D70 to weigh in at 119kgs.
@Spiru - appreciate your input. ETEC guys, i was expecting some form of discussion on what Spiru claims.
If a Yamaha 70HP weighs in at 119Kgs then I can add in a little bit more information. My Yamaha 50HP 4s is a High Thrust model and weighs in at the same weight of 119Kgs! Impressive the difference in construction between the two models!
the 70HP Yamaha is lighter cos it is the MAX HP from that engine block. For the 80HP they use the next bigger block. If the 50HP weighs as much as the 70HP than it also uses the same block (engine) which in this case is detuned. All outboard brands are like this. Tipically there will will only be 4 different engines to cater from 40Hp to 275HP. The 70HP yamaha has a big advantage when it comes to performance since it uses the small engine which is lighter. But It also has a big disadvantage because you are geting the max HP from that engine while the 50HP using the same engine is more relaxed mechanicaly.
The choise between any 2 stroke and any 4 stroke is quite obvious. If you want a quite motor ideally suited for trolling get a 4 stroke since it performs best at that. If you want to run fast (at high rpm) for most of the time, then get a 2 stroke motor since the push and simplicity of a 2 storke engine is unmatched at high RPM. Having said that, both motors can troll and go on high RPM without issues.
I have a 2011 225HP e-tec. No issues so far.
yes i do troll with 100hp,but not with live bait.minimum speed is about 2.25kn.one can troll above this speed for hours with no problem.no plug fouling
Mercury and mariner have more or less the same direct incection engine as the e tec.the optimax.BUT.some say that mercury or mariner are more powerful when it comes to WOT,because in these engines air is compressed with a small copressor rather that sucking it in like e tec,making it more efficient.
yamaha the best
Maybe you should consider the new MERCURY 60Hp 4 Stroke BIG FOOT at 118Kgs
http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/outboards/fourstrokes/40-60/?model=5
Attached is a direct comparison between Mercury 60Hp Big Foot - Yamaha 70Hp & Honda
Mercury 60Hp 4 Stroke Big Foot EFI from Euro 6250 we can offer at Euro 5800 till end September 2013
Complete with:
2x Smart Craft Dials: Rev counter & Tilt Meter
FREE SMARTCRAFT DIGITAL DIAL
SPORT Side Mount Control Box
Quicksilver Harness
BLACKMAX Prop
FREE INSTALLATION
MERCURY 60Hp EFI BIG FOOT is backed by a 5 Years Guarantee
Annual standard Service Euro 245 incl:
Oil Filter
Inline Water Separator
External Water Separator
Spark Plugs
Quicksilver 4 Stroke Engine Oil
Quicksilver High Performance Gear Oil
Gear Oil Screw Gaskets
Quicksilver 2-4-C Marine Grease
Quicksilver Corrosion Guard
MECCA MARINE's BOAT SALE: Monday 23rd to Monday 30th SEPTEMBER!
www.boats-malta.com | Tel: 79732783
Talk with the agent for mariner and for sure he will give a good deal and an eccelent after-sale service. No hidden things!!
Remember also that 100hr service, for trolling, you can do them even in 2 weeks time. Doing the service where you wish makes difference
If I were you , I would go for a Mariner rather than a Mercury, even though the engine is quite the same. My decision would be based on a better after sale services.
Yes these guys are right.Go to attard industrial estate,ask for mariner agents or "ta l ispeed craft" and talk to Bernard or Josie.When i hada two stroke mariner they always had parts in stock.They have a very good meccanic Raymond,he will be more than pleased to help you.
245 euro for servicing a 60hp engine is VERY VERY VERY expensive.first of all it is very easy doing it yourself.You dont have to change the spark plugs annualy in a 4 stroke,actually i never changed them in 5 years.These modern motors are like our modern petrol cars.do you change your car's plugs every year?
These 5 year guarantee is a gimmic.going to agents doing service will cost you a fortune.Believe me servicing a 60 hp should not cost more than 70euro.So emicmalta is right.ask if you can service it elsewhere.trolling frequently,you will easy do 250 to 300hrs a year.so immagine servicing a 60 hp motor 3 times a year costing 750euro.
If this is everyone's policy i prefer loosing the warranty and serving it myself.
Do the maths,how much it will cost in 5 years,fearing that you loose the warranty.
ooooooops i found this year yamaha receipt for service parts.MINE IS A 100 HP NOT 60HP
ENGINE OIL................34.95
ENGINE FILTER............12.35
WATER SEPARATOR 9.05
1 LTR OF GEAR OIL 12.45 this will last for 2 services
GEARCASE WASHERS 1.80
PROP SPLIT PIN 1.20
MARINE GREASE 7.20 THIS WILL LAST FOR AGES
CORROSION GUARD 6.50 THIS WILL LAST FOR AGES
tOTAL 85.50 EURO .....Taking in consideration that some
parts last for 2 services or more
Thank you all for your sound advice.
MERCURY gives the option for your GUARANTEE PERIOD:
EU standard 2 year guarantee
or
Upgrade to 5 Years Guarantee
The 2 Year Guarantee as required by LAW is standard and you are free to service the engine anywhere but you must proof that the service was carried out using new Quicksilver Replacement Parts.
OR
Upgrade to the 5 years Guarantee by adhering to Mercury's Service Sheet as described above and you will be backed by a 5 years Guarantee.
This is a common practice on computers, tvs etc in USA and now also in Europe and MERCURY OUTBOARDS have chosen to offer this service to their clients. I just point out that sales for MERCURY OUTBOARDS in MALTA, as you can all see are on the sharp increase due to quality products, unbeatable prices and MUCH IMPROVED AFTERSALES SERVICE.
MECCA MARINE has 4 appointed mechanics/installers: Gilbert, Robert, Michael, and Eric.
A client is Free to choose any of the above for servicing under warranty.
Like everything in life you can chose to buy a variety of quality products.
Marine Grease Euro 6.90 (Standard Marine Grease)
Quicksilver 2-4-C Marine Grease Euro 14.99
Quicksilver Teflon 101 Euro 33.96
Gear Oil:
Standard Gear Oil Euro 8.99
Quicksilver Gear Oil Euro 11.05
Quicksilver High Performance Oil 1 Ltr Euro 24.50 - Correct it will be enough for 2 services.
Corrosion Guard:
Quicksilver Corrosion Guard is not the same product as Solve It, Brunox and others sold just under Euro 10.
Spray Quicksilver Corrosion Guard on external surfaces to protect from corrosion.
Recommended for marine products and other equipment
Provides a film that is dry to the touch, has excellent resistance to water, oxidation and corrosion
Remains clear
Does not peel
Harmless to painted surfaces
We have only introduced this item for the past 2 years and sales of this item is really overwhelming.
Many clients, Outboard & Inboard owners of not just MERCURY & MERCRUISER also are buying this to protect their engine. Some also use it on their Off Road Vehicles and Motorcycles.
All services by MECCA MARINE are carried out with client. Services are also offered at the comfort of your home and no need to bring boat to MECCA MARINE.
Please feel free to contact us for any further assistance. We strive hard to deliver and offer a reliable aftersales service. nichol@mecca.com.mt Tel: 21573278 | 79732783
For the type of use that you want out of your boat, go for a Four Stroke.
I have owned a Low Pressure DI engine, a high pressure DI engine and a modern 4 stroke and can say for fishing, even with the additional service costs related to a 4 stroke, they are better suited for trolling than any DI engine, no matter what the manufacturers say.
Interesting data sheet from Yamaha.
Yeps, Yamaha seem to be way ahead, up there where the air is fresh.
Skip, what are the additional service costs?just engine oil and filter,but do not forget that 4 stroke engine does not need 2 stroke oil.i used to buy quicksilver 2 stroke oil when i had my mariner...it was 34 euro for 4 or 5 litres,and you will need much more than 1 can in 100hrs.so 4 stroke is cheaper to run.
Practically in my opinion there is no advantages that an e tec motor has over a 4 stroke like yamaha.you also same money on spark plugs.Mine is still with factory plugs after 5 years.Ask e tec owners how many times they changed their plugs especially if they troll for long hours.
you need to replace the timing belt in a 4 stroke but that is after 1000hrs
2 strokes are much more expensive to mentain compaired with 4 stroke. It does nt include only oil and filter, you must remember the compressor, which as for the optimax, Tldi and all similar engins, their life time is not so long and it s costs is nearly more the 1/3 of a new complete engine. An other thing on ideling and low revs, 2 strokes does nt like it at all. ( talking regards the new 2 stroke systems).
Now a days 4 stroke engines are much more similar to a car engine and all the technology if going in that way.
Emic you are right,in fact they are the same like car engines.The yamaha 100detl is the Ford Puma engine.Actually it is a FORD engine but modified in japan by Yamaha
Emic E tec has no compressor!
And to say that an e tec is more expensive to maintain than a 4 stroke .....well I tend to not agree.
Do you know how many more moving parts does a 4 stroke require compered to a 2 stroke ??
You should only go for a 4 stroke if the motor is to be used exclusively for trolling at low RPM
Each to their own, but there appear to be some serious misconeceptions being discussed!
@Spiru - sounds like you had a regular oil burner as they were know, classic carb based 2 stroke. They used alot of oil by their very nature, 25:1 or 50:1 at best. A good 2 stroke DI engine like an E-TEC can even run 100:1 though usually around 75:1 for XD100 on an E-TEC. That's not alot of oil at all! Ask Fortuna who fishes a lot and uses an E-TEC 75
@Emic 2 strokes are NOT more expensive to maintain, ask any mechanic. They have far less moving parts and by their very nature and design are far more reliable as a result. Any 2 stroke just needs it's drive oil changed and that's it! If you are changing plugs left/right and centre then you have some other issues.
You are supposed to change the engine oil and filter every 100 hours minimum on a 4 stroke which probably has you pulling the boat out of the water. You don't have those issues on a 2 stroke DI. And you have far more moving parts on a 4 stroke, timing belts or though now usually self adjusting chains and in general their maintenance schedule at 300 hours is far more detailed than a 2 stroke DI.
@Spiru/Emic - I have a V6 3.3L 225 ETEC and have never had to change the plugs, I have pulled to inspect them and they are fine. The engine idles beautifully and no issues in gear at slow speeds. You can't compare an old 2 stroke with a DI engine, so not sure which engine you are having issues with as you said modern 2 stroke.
A E-TEC and similar have one significant advantange over a 4 stroke by miles, holeshot and the way by their very nature they develop power every 2 strokes and not 4. A 2 stroke DI engine is going to be much faster off the line than an equivalent 4 stroke which don't run as fast at all, and tend (though not in this case) to be heavier. So if you are planning on towing skiers or have a heavier boat or you are not running the max rated hp of your boat, then then a 2 stroke DI wins hands down, if you are going to put high hours on each season, I reckon same, DI wins.
If you're doing lots of fishing, slow or medium trolling and no water sports, then go with a 4 stroke, they are smoother and quieter in general depending on the engine. How smooth they are also depends on the engine design, number of cylinders etc , and for example a 4 cylinder engine tends to be better balanced than a 3.
Quote from: redhead on September 23, 2013, 09:48:04 CET
Emic E tec has no compressor!
And to say that an e tec is more expensive to maintain than a 4 stroke .....well I tend to not agree.
Do you know how many more moving parts does a 4 stroke require compered to a 2 stroke ??
You should only go for a 4 stroke if the motor is to be used exclusively for trolling at low RPM
nice to hear that. They had told me that the system was the same as TLDI. Sorry for that.
I can say that a good service on mine cost me 350e. the only thing extra that there was in the bill was the lower bearing. So I think its a bit expensive. I done this service from one of the mention guys that someone said before.
Just to mention some parts and their cost. I m talking for a tohatsu TLDI 50. Compressor 1500e, ECU 1500e, Crank and a set of gaskets 1800e. Complete motor with power tilt cost 4700euro.
As for this engine, that's the one I can talk on, I saw several engines with these problems and spending nearly half it s actual price to arrange a problem, isn t so cheap
Quote from: EmicMalta on September 23, 2013, 14:35:06 CET
Quote from: redhead on September 23, 2013, 09:48:04 CET
Emic E tec has no compressor!
And to say that an e tec is more expensive to maintain than a 4 stroke .....well I tend to not agree.
Do you know how many more moving parts does a 4 stroke require compered to a 2 stroke ??
You should only go for a 4 stroke if the motor is to be used exclusively for trolling at low RPM
nice to hear that. They had told me that the system was the same as TLDI. Sorry for that.
I can say that a good service on mine cost me 350e. the only thing extra that there was in the bill was the lower bearing. So I think its a bit expensive. I done this service from one of the mention guys that someone said before.
Just to mention some parts and their cost. I m talking for a tohatsu TLDI 50. Compressor 1500e, ECU 1500e, Crank and a set of gaskets 1800e. Complete motor with power tilt cost 4700euro.
As for this engine, that's the one I can talk on, I saw several engines with these problems and spending nearly half it s actual price to arrange a problem, isn t so cheap
If i had a problem that costs half of the engine I would sell it as parts emic and buy a new one (another brand)...
believe me, with the price of the parts even discounted (say you sell them 30% lower than market price) you would have bought a new one.
good point Granitu - Sadly Tohatsu over priced their parts ,so this should perhaps be looked into when looking at which new engine.
How much will the annual service parts for each brand/model cost me. How much is their engine/drive oil given that you will have to use theirs during the warranty period , etc.
Sadly nowadays outboards ate no longer the durables the old ones were. Forget that nowadays outbaords will have the life span of a seagull.... Structurally they are produced less durable so that they breakdown after some serious hours of use at the intent to retail their parts at very high prices... Or else buy a new one.
Every manufacturer knows the lifespan of a part in hours and they just adjust pricing and manufacturing accordingly. The parts business is the real money business for producers
My opinion re 2 stroke vs 4 stroke is like what skip is saying, plus the fact of fuel consumption. If you need performance 2 stroke, if you need fuel consumption 4 stroke. What i can say is that after 15 years, my 115hp Yamaha is as good as new, and all i spend is a few Euros for spark plugs, impeller and gearbox grease only every 2 years. Plus some elbow grease to clean the carbs. Other than that, no maintenance required. I would not change it for the world, apart from the issue of fuel consumption, that's all.
Quote from: aidanxuereb on September 24, 2013, 08:59:20 CET
My opinion re 2 stroke vs 4 stroke is like what skip is saying, plus the fact of fuel consumption. If you need performance 2 stroke, if you need fuel consumption 4 stroke. What i can say is that after 15 years, my 115hp Yamaha is as good as new, and all i spend is a few Euros for spark plugs, impeller and gearbox grease only every 2 years. Plus some elbow grease to clean the carbs. Other than that, no maintenance required. I would not change it for the world, apart from the issue of fuel consumption, that's all.
Aidan... your motor is a 1998 model?? those are one of the best generation yamahas ever produced - a next door outboard mechanic friend of mine vouches on them.