Malta Fishing Forum

Marine => Engine Reviews => Topic started by: kris on January 28, 2014, 16:01:35 CET



Title: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on January 28, 2014, 16:01:35 CET
Hi guys how's everyone?! It's been some time since I have posted!  :)

I am seriously thinking of upgrading my current Toahtsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection (71.5kg) to a bigger Tohatsu 50Hp TLDI (93.5kg) on my Marino atom (15ft deep-V hull @ 310kg). The idea after all this is to keep the engine in the lower rpm range and hence, fingers crossed, I'll save fuel consumption and at the same time I'll have some back-up power  8)

Also, one more thing that is keeping me frustrated is that the boat takes up to 5 persons but if I have loads of stuff (for a days fishing for lampuki/alungi or for a swim) and we are 2 or 3 people, the boat won't plane...let alone if we are 4 or 5 persons!  :-\

The engine is extremely economical when kept on the lower rpm range i.e. trolling speed (~4.5 knots) or even cruising speed (~15knots) at half to 3/4 throttle. On the other hand, when the boat is loaded and I push the throttle at 3/4 - full throttle it is a complete different story!

The boat is rated for a maximum 50hp outboard engine. Currently with my 30hp and 25L fuel tank + 2 persons, the boat reaches 22 knots at full throttle and 15-18 knots at cruising speed (3/4 throttle). This of course is when the boat has 2 persons on board and not so loaded OR else it has 3 persons and NOT loaded at all.

From my personal experience, I feel that the boat handles best up to 15 - 18 knots in calm/slightly choppy seas, of course boat handling experience and direction of the wind and waves play a very important role too  :)

However I think that the back-up of the extra hp will not be a loss...this of course is when I need it for those times when the boat has 3+ persons or is loaded, or when the sea is calm for a fun ride, or even when there are very strong currents and the engine is struggling to plane the boat.

The majority of the times we are 2 persons on board, with tackle and stuff for coastal fishing. Also, my no.1 priority still remains fuel consumption, however after sharing my view on the topic I would like to have your opinions on the subject :)

P.s. I have attached a fuel consumption chart, the red rectangles (in the attachment) show 'approx. fuel consumption in L per hour' (from tohatsu website), the other two columns show 'rpm' and 'gallons per hour'.

Thanks all much appreciated!  :)
Kris


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on January 28, 2014, 19:03:57 CET
What worries me is slow trolling with tldi's!
Can it go slow enough?
Will it pink?
Is it noisy?


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on January 28, 2014, 21:05:05 CET
Sorry baghira but I am not that technical, what do you mean by pink? Yeah I think I know what you mean regarding slow trolling...especially for live bait trolling at dead slow speed as it is still a 2-stroke after all. Any of you guys own a tldi or heard about any issues?


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 28, 2014, 22:10:37 CET
What worries me is slow trolling with tldi's!
Can it go slow enough?
Will it pink?
Is it noisy?
Why so sceptic Silv?! My 50HP Etec goes down to 750 revs (even less if I make computer adjustment by an expert), trolled for 6 hours plenty of times at 1 knot and less and never had any issues. Fuel consumption is excellent and noise very minimal plus no vibration of engine at all. I assume that the Tohatsu 50HP TLDI is more or less like my engine but I stand to be corrected.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 28, 2014, 22:15:46 CET
For members' information, Tohatsu have launched a new generation of 4-stroke engines ranging from 60HP to 250HP which will be available from PTR Marine of Rabat, who are sole agents for Tohatsu in Malta.

http://www.maltapark.com/item.aspx?ItemID=3029571


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on January 28, 2014, 22:56:34 CET
That's what I found on Tohatsu's website:

"A unique feature on our TLDI® outboards is our user adjustable idle speed system.  By pressing in on the key switch, you are able to adjust the idle from 700 to 900 RPM’s  while you are using your outboard. Our TLDI® system will even remember the last setting and use this speed the next time you use your motor. In areas where currents are stronger or constantly changing, this makes time spent trolling all the more easier and pleasant. And because the TLDI® is a direct injection outboard, trolling for extended periods of time drastically reduces the occurrence of fouled spark plugs."

So strictly speaking...there is some fouling on the spark plugs at low rpms for extended periods BUT it should be drastically reduced.

@Malvizzu, yes my friend I know about the new range. In fact the range starts from 40hp-250hp! Today I had a chat over the phone with Shaun (ptr marine manager) regarding my issue and he has been EXTREMELY helpful (customer care way better than previous agent). Apparently, the 50hp TLDI and 50hp 4 stroke have a difference of ONLY 1.5kg!! So I am definitely considering the 4 stroke too!! I am visiting ptr marine showroom late next week to discuss things better with Shaun.

http://maltapark.com/item.aspx?ItemID=2987383


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on January 29, 2014, 07:38:46 CET
Well.....
I think that if I was to use a motor for trolling I would prefer a 4 stroke.

If you have an additional motor to use, then go ahead.....

That's my opinion after all....

Re: Noise.... Nothing can be compared to a 4 stroke. I have been on many new 2 stroke engines....
Obviously there was a very drastic change from the previous versions of 2 stroke engines, but so did the 4 stroke, and the sound of the new engines is simply amazing on these engines.

I have been last on Visa's boat powered by a large suzuki 4 stroke... The power/consumption and the silence of this outboard is amazing.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on January 29, 2014, 07:40:00 CET
If you need the boat to run around... then go ahead with 2 stroke since that there are less moving parts, and less parts to fail... and running xosts are less than a 2 stroke.

That's my 2 cents...my opinion..


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on January 29, 2014, 09:13:12 CET
My number one boat use will still be fishing, be it coastal or offshore (for offshore I would need a good 30-60 minutes to arrive to destination), but since I use it for other things I'd like to get some other opinions before I go for a 4 stroke or modern 2 stroke engine (like tldi, optimax, or etec). Maybe the new tohatsu 4 stroke has the best combination on the market if it's true that between the tldi and the 4 stroke there is a difference of just 1.5kg! (I'll check that next week)

Well guys, the factors I am considering to get the best combination are these:
cost to buy engine,
power-weight ratio,
fuel consumption,
noise,
maintenance costs,
local agent (because of any after sales).


I have done some research here on the forum and I read some great things regarding the etec, optimax, and suzuki but I don't have any experience with these engine.

It's true I have listed down tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s tohatsu 50hp tldi, but if you have any experience with any other brands please go ahead and post :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 29, 2014, 13:51:46 CET
Shaun of PTR Marine is extremely helpful and knowledgeable. I have been twice to his office already enquiring for an auxiliary 6HP 4-stroke. New stock should be in at the end of this month.

In MY opinion:

cost to buy engine – depending on your budget
power-weight ratio – definitely 2-stroke direct injection
fuel consumption – debatable, roughly I consume 10L or less for 6hr slow trolling
noise – I think 4-stroke
maintenance costs – definitely 2-stroke direct injection
local agent (because of any after sales) – depending from whom you buy  ;)

As regards to spark plug fouling, I never had any issues and when I did my first full service, the plugs were still in very good working order. Still they were changed due to working hours. ETECs have a carbon additive fuel by BRP to add to petrol to avoid fouling when trolling at slow speeds for long hours. I will be using it this coming summer. Maybe Tohatsu have something similar. Whatever you buy, make sure you are convinced and within your budget. Cheers  :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on January 29, 2014, 14:19:08 CET
what do you mean by slow trolling?
Can you please remind us your size of boat and outboard?

Malvizzu obviously.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on January 29, 2014, 14:54:36 CET
Thanks for sharing your experience malvizzu! I see that in your opinion you are definitely a 2-stroke fan in almost all aspects! :)

@Malvizzu regarding the spark plugs fouling, I'll discuss things with Shaun in person, as till now we have talked over the phone. Regarding slow trolling...I second baghira...can you give more information regarding slow trolling please? Fore example, the weight of the boat, number of persons, and at what rpm/knots? If I remember correctly you own a 14ft fastfisher with a 50hp etec right? :)

@baghira...it would have been funny if you directed that question to me after the composition i wrote hahahaha :P


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 29, 2014, 14:55:41 CET
Petecraft 14 footer + Evinrude ETEC 50HP. Boat: 300kg. Engine: 110kg. Boat is not a deep-V like Kris'. Slow trolling: around 2 - 2.3 knots sometimes less. Always trolling with my father (around 70kg, i'm 75kg). On board 45L main fuel tank + 10L spare fuel tank + two 5L water tanks + fishing gear + other must accessories


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 29, 2014, 14:59:22 CET
Kris I cannot define myself as a 2-stroke fan :) I chose this type of engine after considering various opinions from fellow members on this forum before buying. If you search my initial posts you will realize how many questions I have asked before concluding purchase :) Before this boat I only had a 13 foot frejatina with a Mariner 9.9HP engine. So I definitely needed some feedback before upgrading.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on January 29, 2014, 15:07:16 CET
I must say that the etec is extremely economical as if you add up all the fuel & water tanks its as if there are 3 persons in all on board. At what speed do you troll malvizzu when you meant 'slow trolling' before?

I also read about the suzuki df50 (4stroke) to be unbeatable regarding economy & power ratio. Maybe any member who own one can give us their opnion :)

Yep I am no expert too in this field, that's why I am asking here before upgrading my engine. And yep, ultimately it still boils down to each individual case when purchasing anything :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 29, 2014, 15:23:29 CET
As stated above 2 - 2.3 knots, sometimes less.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on January 29, 2014, 15:30:56 CET
Aaa yes yes thanks I missed it! :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on January 29, 2014, 19:55:35 CET
2 / 3 knots is quite a lot for my type of fishing..

I own an old generation 4 stroke HP70 evinrude which under the cap is suzuki DF70.
The old generation were quite heavier than modern ones and consume much more, and also more silent and powerful.

It is on a Zodiac 16 foot rib with a very heavy deep vee Hull. Compared to other boats, I state that my rib is very heavy.

I really do not know how you succeed in calculating fuel consumption without appropriate gauges... I do not know mine! I know that for a 7 hour trolling day at 1.5knots approx , including approx 18 miles to go and come from my fishing ground I consume roughly 40/45 euro.

The speed and revs are constant all day long, and silence...............
After all we go at sea to relax and hear nature, not vuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I can do much better with consumption, but cannot do otherwise for the time being.

Servicing is abit expensive, with a normal service costing approx 300euro.

My 2 cents...


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: lazyfisherman on January 29, 2014, 20:25:02 CET
Don't know much about engines but if you regularly troll live bait, 2-2.3 knots is generally too fast - very often you are down to 1 knot or so (sometimes even less if you are moving in the direction of the current)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 30, 2014, 09:22:15 CET
I do not troll with live baits at all and so never needed to go down to 1 knot. For me 2 knots is slow trolling. My consumption calculations are not 100%. What I do is fill the main fuel tank, which is 45L, to the full. I have a sender unit and fuel gauge which gives a decent indication of consumption. Every time I go out I take with me another 10L fuel in a portable tank and when I go on berth again after 6 hours trolling, I refill main fuel tank. It's just simple mathematics and you don't have to be an Einstein :)

@Baghira – and what do you expect with a heavy Zodiac and a 70HP old system 2-stroke, that it's going to work just by the smell of fuel (jahdem bir-riha  ;D) (sorry but don't know the correct expression in English)

A full service by Teddy cost me 185 Euros (including labour).


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on January 30, 2014, 09:33:26 CET
old generation 4 stroke malvizz!!! :-)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on January 30, 2014, 09:39:56 CET
Ooops sorry Silv, my lapsus. Apologies :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: Granitu on January 30, 2014, 13:24:13 CET

I really do not know how you succeed in calculating fuel consumption without appropriate gauges...


If I tell you i calculate the amount of fuel i consume on my boat with a wood stick marked appropiately....

And its better than a fuel sender!!!! :P



Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: bigboy on January 30, 2014, 13:27:30 CET
Granitu...... Same way i calculate fuel ;)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: savioursajdbis on January 30, 2014, 19:32:55 CET
Go for Yamaha 50 hp 4 str very low consumption and the weight is 114 kg


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: EmicMalta on January 31, 2014, 09:38:26 CET
@Baghira: spending 40-45€, you have to see the sea conditions. Your rib is very strong so it s expected to consume that amount. All I suggest is to get a small engine and use it for trolling. This will reduce the hrs from the main engine and be more fuel efficiency.

Fuel efficiency is hard to say, but i have a 30hp 2 stroke and a 50hp tldi (both tohatsu) for a 13ft bucaneer. When i used to have the 30, it use to consume more then 2 times as much as the 50. All i can say is from gnejna, going to ghadira, then going around gozo and strait to gnejna. A whole day diving, with the sea completely flat. I spent 19€ + oil.

Now I read that Tohatsu got some new 4 stroke in collaboration with Honda. I used to hear not such nice thing with previous 4 stroke Tohatsu, but if they go with honda I think is t a good choice. PTR is very helpful so will be a good option for us.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 02, 2014, 08:35:29 CET
nice consumptions.....
The problem I have is where to install the aux.???
My rib is particular at the back.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: The_Gaffer on February 02, 2014, 09:41:47 CET
i owned marino atom 15 ft as yours 350kg powered by honda 50bf fuel inj auxiliary 5honda runs very well 33knts .mecca says deep v actually its not..fuel economy extremly good go for alungi 2 persons nice weather start engine @5 till 10.30 17euro
So what you're saying here is for a 5 and a half hour trip for Alongi, you burn between 10 and 12 litres of fuel.  I'm guessing you are running the auxiliary for trolling, apart from the fact that you do not travel far to reach the fishing grounds.  Still, if as you say, you only burn 12ltrs of fuel for a fishing trip, i'm very surprised!


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 03, 2014, 07:11:58 CET
ma fhimt xejn....


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 03, 2014, 10:56:35 CET
Go for Yamaha 50 hp 4 str very low consumption and the weight is 114 kg

The New Tohatsu 4 stroke 50hp is just 95kg! Will probably go to visit ptr this week. Currently tohatsu seem to have the best power to weight ratio of the 4 stroke range on the market! And regarding fuel efficiency, the new 4 stroke is quoted to consume 15.7L/hr at 5000-6000rpm V.s the tohatsu 50 tldi 16.5L/hr at 5150-5850rpm

i owned marino atom 15 ft as yours 350kg powered by honda 50bf fuel inj auxiliary 5honda runs very well 33knts .mecca says deep v actually its not..fuel economy extremly good go for alungi 2 persons nice weather start engine @5 till 10.30 17euro

Very good to hear from someone who has another marino atom powered by a 50hp. Halop, can you give more details regarding your fuel economy? What I mean is from where you launch your boat? My home port is gzira, the two times I went for alungi last season I have left port at about 6am and returned back at about 12pm. I calculated to have consumed around 30L of fuel going up and down at 18knots and then trolling at 6.3 knots.

@halop, can you give me your personal experience having a marino atom with a 50hp on it please? :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 03, 2014, 11:25:00 CET
Wow 95kg is definitely light for a 50HP 4-stroke. My 50HP ETEC is 110kg and when I bought it, it was the lightest in it's category. So there must have been a lot of changes in the 4-stroke industry, at least by Tohatsu.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 03, 2014, 11:38:26 CET
If you guys want to take a look at the specs of the Tohatsu 50hp 4 stroke then click on the following link: http://www.tohatsu-italia.it/?do=prodotto&id=306
At the bottom there is the technical data :)

It is in Italian, BUT for those who want it in english...open it in google chrome and click translate from the pop up that shows ;) Funnily enough the only official tohatsu page to have updated their info regarding the new 4 strokes are the Italians.

Wow 95kg is definitely light for a 50HP 4-stroke. My 50HP ETEC is 110kg and when I bought it, it was the lightest in it's category. So there must have been a lot of changes in the 4-stroke industry, at least by Tohatsu.

Yes malvizzu! That is why I am now seriously considering the 50hp 4 stroke! As before...the 'only' advantage the 2 strokes direct injection had over the 4 strokes were the power-to-weight ratio!


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: ganni on February 03, 2014, 12:01:49 CET
The lightweight design usually comes from much lighter material, which usually is at the expense of the material's strength. There is surely a price to pay for this.  A friend of mine hit the vertical fin of the lower unit of his honda outboard and xplahh, the fin broke and it can't be fixed, every time he fixes it, with the slightest hit its off again.  I found some other similar cases for honda online, very prevalent in lake fishing where logs get caught between the lower unit and the prop.

I wouldn't really buy an outboard over the other for the sake of a 15kg difference, there are many more important things.  Some years ago when the E-tecs got out a lot of the leasing and Commino boats moved to this new technology, look at the same boats nowadays, you will notice that they have once again moved to Yamaha, with some of them opting for Suzuki.  The most prevalent problem was injector failure.  Most of you guys only put some 100hrs a seasons on your engine, if not much less, talk to these guys and get their feedback.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 03, 2014, 12:10:27 CET
Yes true enough ganni, your reasoning crossed my mind too! :) That is why I am still considering all available options :) But then again...it's like buying a car...one must buy according to the person's best needs and no product beats all the other competitors in everything :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 03, 2014, 12:56:12 CET
This got to be a very interesting topic for everyone of us...
Feedback from more members would be nice to hear...


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 03, 2014, 12:58:49 CET
Yes baghira that's what I was thinking  :-\ Some feedback from members which are owners of all the brands concerned would be nice.

Some more info on the new Tohatsu 50hp 4 stroke :) (again it's in Italian)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjqGGtIcpDY

What do you think guys?  :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 03, 2014, 14:05:45 CET
@ganni - but what was the reason of changing from ETECs to Yammies for these boats? You have to verify how they were handled and the amount of hours each season and years used. ForTuna has his ETEC for 8 years now and I'm sure he makes more than 100 hours each season (not like me :)) and still engine is going strong. Maybe there was too much wear and tear on the engines after hundreds of hours in use and owners might have bargained a better price for the Yammies.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 03, 2014, 14:15:00 CET
I think you're mis-informed malvizzu...
Fortuna barely makes 100 hours a year.....
We have been going together quite a lot lately, but before the boat spend many of the time on dry land.. (correct me fortuna if I am wrong)...

So there is no comparizon between the two...


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: EmicMalta on February 03, 2014, 15:30:01 CET
The yam 50hp is 4 cylinder and that s the difference in weight. I heard that there are yam 40hp (4 stroke) that can bring it up to 50-60 with some modifications, but still it will be a 3 cylinder engine and will never be with an efficiency of a 4 cylinder.

Hight the revs, higher the problems


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 03, 2014, 16:25:00 CET
@emic why do you think that a 4-cylinder is more fuel efficient than a 3-cylinder engine?


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: The_Gaffer on February 03, 2014, 16:44:00 CET
I did a lot of research and shopping around before I decided on the ideal outboard for my new Petecraft 16.  I needed economy, speed and reliability, + after sales of course.  When it came to choice, I also considered weight to HP ratio, since the rule of thumb has been until recently, the more HP, the more weight.  I opted for the Yamaha F70 midrange 4cylinder outboard.  The latest model weighs in at only 117KGs.  This particular new outboard weighs in at 40Kgs less than its main competitors.  Less weight, more fuel efficiency.   If compared to other Yamahas in the midrange type, this is how it fares:  Yamaha 90HP - 169Kgs, Yamaha 75HP - 166Kgs, Yamaha 60HP - 113kgs.  Suzuki 70HP weighs in at 155Kgs, and Mercury 75kgs at 188kgs!.  These are all 4 stroke engines.  In the 2 stroke category we have Compared to  a Tohotsu TLDi 75HP - 152kgs, and Evinrude ETEC - 145Kgs.
Yamaha's reliability does not come into question, so does after sales.  The rest was easy!



Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: EmicMalta on February 03, 2014, 16:51:42 CET
I m not talking regards fuel, but just here every one is saying regards weight, but not considering what does the extra weight means and where is being used. Personally dont see that just 10-15kg will make so much difference on a boat performance. I prefare to have a good engine that is in safe limits and reduce problems that having an engine that is used to it s limit.

I think 4 cylinder is more stable compared with a 3 cylinder especially when used with high revs.

In pervious msg i said that I used 19€ of fuel for that day, but i was on just 4000rev, alone, on a 13ft boat, and the sea completely flat. If i use it with a 4000rev but with 4 people onboard, it s not a problem, but for sure the fuel will make a difference.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: ganni on February 03, 2014, 17:27:02 CET
@ malvizzu, some of them only lasted for 3 seasons.  When the injectors failed they were too expensive to fix that they opted for a new outboard.  Its irrelevant on how many hours you put on an engine, an engine should last way longer than that.

How they were handled? Exactly the same way the yamahas are being handled.

In the light that all of them have swapped after such a short time, the conclusions are very easy to reach...


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 03, 2014, 18:56:36 CET
Good to know ganni. I hope I haven't made a wrong decision than when buying my ETEC.

Apologies baghira but I assumed ForTuna does plenty of hours as I always thought he is a fervent fisherman :)

This thread is proving very informative and good to know certain details. Gaffer's research gives a lot food for thought. Thanks to all :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 03, 2014, 19:06:37 CET
@Gaffer - why so much difference between the Yamaha F70 (117kgs) and the Yamaha 75HP (166kgs) both being 4-stroke engines?


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: ForTuna on February 03, 2014, 20:15:20 CET
Good evening to you all.

As Baghira was saying before these last couple of years unfortunately I was not able to use the boat as much as I wanted too due to work/study commitments, however In the beginning it was rather the opposite. I used to fetch fishing grounds of not less than 20 miles out during Lampuki season so I used to get very close to 100hrs per season or more.

Today's engines ( all brands ) are pretty much reliable, being two stroke or four stroke. I personally have opted to go for Evinrude as at that time it was the lightest 75HP on the market. Nothing against the Brand , today I may consider also the new Yamaha F70 due to its light weight.

I think you really have to shop around carefully nowadays, decide on the HP desired, then consider if you want a smooth engine and you can afford those extra kilos and go for a 4 stroke or lighter engines and go for a 2 stroke.

I am strongly considering to upgrade to a 23 ft with a maximum rating of 175HP and at the moment I am still Pro Etec being almost 20kg lighter than its closest 150HP 4 stroke rival and you have the benefit of extra 25HP under the Cowling which will be of great help to plane faster....(again same engine as 150HP but tuned more) it all goes down to a personal choice more quite engines or faster and more torque....

As for your question about Yamaha Malvizzu if I am not wrong :

the F70 has the same engine block of the 50HP but it is tuned more. You get more HP out of a small engine (1000cc)

While the 75 has a bigger block probably around 1300-1400cc of course than it gets heavier.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: The_Gaffer on February 03, 2014, 22:07:04 CET
Correct! Also, the F70 is a SOHC engine while the 75HP are DOHC.  Most of the reviews on this new revolutionary outboard state that the revs attained by yamaha F70 have been tested in moto GPs where Yamaha lead the way driven by a  certain Valentino Rossi.  Better known as a revhead!.  So a lot of R&D has gone into this outboard before it was launched.  As for being a tuned up engine, yes it is, but revolutionary, as the low rev and mid range grunt is equally impressive.  Again, yamaha techies attribute this to the impressive motorcycle range, where acceleration, speed, longevity and reliability are impressive.  Im pasting a link to a review on this new Yamaha F70.
http://www.fishingworld.com.au/news/fuel-miser-tested-yamaha-f70-four-stroke

By the way, did I mention the fuel burn on this outboard?, boats similar in weight and hull to the petecraft 16' will run at 22knts burning 10ltrs an hour with medium load and 2 persons on board.



Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 04, 2014, 08:49:25 CET
@The_Gaffer impressive fuel consumption Joe! When you did your shopping around for different outboard brands, did you get any concrete fuel consumption charts? Or you had to search yourself on the internet? And regarding the purchase, I guess you got your Yamaha from Gasan Group right? :)

Unfortunately, the only brand to willingly provide its fuel consumption charts are Tohatsu. Now of course these may be biased, for the simple reason that they are supplied by the manufacturing company itself. When I try to find any fuel consumption info on other brands it is simply non-existent if it weren't provided by certain guys who do test runs  :-\


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 04, 2014, 08:51:15 CET
Great feedback guys. Thanks to all.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 04, 2014, 17:38:34 CET
I have been doing some research on the net. The Yamaha 6HP states to be a 2-cylinder @ 28kg while the Tohatsu 6HP states to be 1-cylinder at 26kg. What's the advantage of the extra cylinder?


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: lazyfisherman on February 04, 2014, 19:42:19 CET
Twin cylinder engines should be smoother and quieter with less vibration.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: ganni on February 04, 2014, 23:07:58 CET
Much much smoother since they are more balanced


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 05, 2014, 07:38:41 CET
From personal experiance.
I own a 1 cylinder motorbike...and I also had 2 cylinder bikes..
Both were reliable.
1 cylinder = (I still own the bike and the engine is a yamaha 660cc) Very reliable, vibrates, noisy, limited top speed, less consumption (I think), but it can tow whatever (impressive torque), Very difficult to leave it on low revs. / speed since that there is 1 piston going up and down and it is th only combustion that will make the engine rotate.
2 cylinder = more balanced output, less vibration, less noise, more revs, more top speed, is capable of going at low, more consumption, less torque.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 05, 2014, 09:29:16 CET
Nice description Baghira. Thanks. So what are your suggestions for a 6HP auxiliary to be used mainly as a back up? I don't know the price of Yamaha yet, only that of Tohatsu, Evinrude and Suzuki. By the way, could not find the Yamaha 6HP 2-cylinder again, probably confused with the 8HP when searching.

Tohatsu = €1250 (incl tank), 1-cylinder, displacement 123cc, weight 26.6kg
Evinrude = €1350 (incl tank), 1-cylinder, displacement 123cc, weight 26.1kg
Suzuki = €1600 (w/o tank), 1-cylinder, displacement 138cc, weight 25.9kg
Yamaha = ??????; 1-cylinder, displacement 139cc, weight 28kg


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 05, 2014, 09:45:14 CET
Ok guys found quite a few reviews regarding 1 or 2 cylinder engines. However, does it really make a difference between a 3 and 4 cylinder when used as the main engine? (in my case I am talking about a 50hp of course)

@Malvizzu...I have an auxiliary 2-stroke 3.5hp long shaft nissan as a backup. It only weighs 12kg if I am not mistaken. I have chosen the lightest possible engine because of the weight to carry around in my car and onto the boat, to mount and unmount for use etc. A 4-stroke is much heavier and one cannot store it in a compartment because of the engine oil, unlike the 2-stroke which can be put facing up.

So if I were you I would opt for the lightest possible, my opinion anyway :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: Granitu on February 05, 2014, 10:11:15 CET
Nice description Baghira. Thanks. So what are your suggestions for a 6HP auxiliary to be used mainly as a back up? I don't know the price of Yamaha yet, only that of Tohatsu, Evinrude and Suzuki. By the way, could not find the Yamaha 6HP 2-cylinder again, probably confused with the 8HP when searching.

Tohatsu = €1250 (incl tank), 1-cylinder, displacement 123cc, weight 26.6kg
Evinrude = €1350 (incl tank), 1-cylinder, displacement 123cc, weight 26.1kg
Suzuki = €1600 (w/o tank), 1-cylinder, displacement 138cc, weight 25.9kg
Yamaha = ??????; 1-cylinder, displacement 139cc, weight 28kg

Malvizz... go for a 9.9 and modify its prop (eg make it a 2 blade prop or a small prop so that it goes down)

These small outboards tend to suffer from clogging in the cooling over time since the cooling canals are relatively small...


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 05, 2014, 11:06:17 CET
@Granitu - as much as I would prefer a 9.9HP I cannot because my boat is only a 14 footer and it would be way too heavy as an auxiliary. Even Petecraft advised me to go for a maximum 6HP. Even with a 6HP I already have a problem fitting on the boat. I already have an auxiliary bracket but when I tried a Honda 5HP the steering rod of the main engine collides with the auxiliary keys when turned to one side. So I have to make different adjustments.

@Kris - I believe that a 2-stroke engine has more torque than a 4-stroke, so the equivalent of a 3.5HP 2-stroke is a 5HP or 6HP 4-stroke. I stand to be corrected. I was considering buying a 2nd hand good 2-stroke engine to have less weight but than I have to have two separate fuel tanks, one with clean fuel and another with fuel+oil for the 2-stroke. And that's a bit of an inconvenience.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 05, 2014, 11:16:24 CET
@malvizzu true enough, my boat is a 15ft 310kg hull + 71.5kg outboard...making it around 400kg in all. With the 3.5hp 2 stroke and 3 persons on board I managed to reach 4.5knots at full throttle, which I think is quite good. What I do regarding the problem of the oil is I just keep a small jerry can of 2-stroke oil on board and never mix it with fuel unnecessarily. My 2 cents is this...as an auxiliary I do not need speed...I just need a reliable small outboard which is capable of firing up without any problems and to bring me safely back to port...even if this may take an extra 30min when compared to a 5hp or 6hp :)


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 05, 2014, 11:28:55 CET
More or less I have the same weight as yours Kris, boat 300kg and engine 110kg. I thought of doing what you proposed as well regarding carrying oil separately.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 05, 2014, 12:07:36 CET
These small outboards sometimes are inclusive of fuel tanks, and all you need is a small amount of fuel + oil.
Make sure to empty the carburetor every time after starting it a bit every now and then, 2 stroke forms a gelatinous substance when not in use, and left still mixed up with fuel. I have no problems to start my chain saw every season after 7 months on the shelf.
I would def. not go for a 9.9 for your boat. Too large and heavy to carry. If its use is going to be just as a backup in case of an emergency, I would go for ths smallest 2 stroke engine that can displace your boat with 3 persons on board. Amongst the brands you mentioned, i would go for the cheapest, and lighter. But aslo i would opt for a second hand.

If I was to buy one, i would choose it differently since that I would need it a bit larger, and I would never remove it, and would also use it for trolling.




Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 05, 2014, 12:10:20 CET
As regards the main motor... Mine is a 70hp 4 stroke on a 16foot rib.
Top speed is 28knots. (not much)
Both motor and rib are a bit heavy and rib has a very deep V hull, and this is the reason why top speed is limited, but then it handles the water marvelously.
Wit 5 persons on board, in force 3, I can plane and go wihoout  any prob, in force 5 we were 4 on board, and I could plane also easily, but could not drive comfortably, so I opted to slow down and went in rather smoothly.

Last year i had a very bad experiance, and i found myself in the middle of a force 8 tornado or whatever it was. I was at sea and the rib on anchor and took me some time to get onboard (I was in panic), we were 3 persons + equipment. Once the anchor was off i managed to get to shore to the slipway safely (although not comfortable at all since that i was shaking with fear). Emic knows what i am saying since that he was facing harsh winds direcly in his face at Popeye, and had to find refuge behind the breakwater..


So guys, altghou consumption etc play a very important role, go for the most safe also.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: baghira on February 05, 2014, 12:16:38 CET
I also used to tow my boat with an escort.

Now I have my landie, and I put my mind much more at rest especially in winter.

considering the fact that my landie cosumes 4 times as much as the escort, but safety must be first.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: kris on February 05, 2014, 12:51:40 CET
@baghira you are right, all the small 3.5hp 2 strokes normally have a 1.5L built in tank BUT I never keep fuel in the outboard tank. I rather take jerry cans with me and if need be I fill up when needed. Wow...considering you have a rib I would have imagined you should reach 35 knots easily with a 70hp! So it must be pretty heavy..but then again...weight will help in rough seas as you said.

Regarding small 2 strokes (I don't know if the small 4 strokes have them too), as soon as you remove the propeller one will find a small shear pin which will break under heavy load e.g. when the prop will suddenly entangle itself in a rope etc. So be careful that the 3.5hp is infact adequate for your size and weight of boat. For me it worked fine! I also heard a case where a 3.5hp 2 stroke was used to move a 20ft cabin cruiser (without that shear pin breaking).


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 05, 2014, 13:03:04 CET
I would def. not go for a 9.9 for your boat. Too large and heavy to carry. If its use is going to be just as a backup in case of an emergency, I would go for ths smallest 2 stroke engine that can displace your boat with 3 persons on board. Amongst the brands you mentioned, i would go for the cheapest, and lighter. But aslo i would opt for a second hand.
If it's a 2-stroke it certainly has to be a 2nd hand as there's no new ones available for sale. Right?!


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 11, 2014, 11:26:04 CET
Anyone knows of a very good working, 2nd hand, not so old, 6HP 2-stroke outboard for sale? I'm still confused and uncertain whether to buy a 2nd hand 2-stroke or a new 4-stroke due to the fact that 2-stroke has more torque and thus provides some more power for my 14 footer.


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: Ramo91 on February 11, 2014, 20:02:38 CET
ara d ditta hidea x'tofri?


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: The_Gaffer on February 12, 2014, 06:44:58 CET
Hidea (moving parts yamaha) have a 5HP model 4stroke.  This model is available from the agent in Malta for around €1000. 


Title: Re: Tohatsu 30hp 4 stroke fuel injection V.s Tohatsu 50hp TLDI
Post by: malvizzu on February 12, 2014, 09:05:08 CET
Prefer to go for a 6HP and better brands.