Outboard Brand

[busumark]

skip i was referring having more control of the boat between using one engine and using the aux in a rough or windy day. you can control better the boat with one engine in this situation. fuel burn i think it will be the same or better with one 50 hp because you have to give nearly full throttle to the 15 hp and even 4-stroke consume a lot of fuel when they are not running at an ideal speed compared to the fuel being used.

i know who has a 9.9 hp an a 16 ft and can only do maximum 5 kts. maybe it depends also from the boat.

[malvizzu]

Yes busu I think it does depend on the boat. In fact this summer I sold my 9.9HP Mariner 2-stroke. The first person who tried it had a Maxum 18ft with an inboard diesel and the 9.9HP could hardly push the boat with 3 persons on it. At full throttle it could barely make 2 knots. Than someone else was interested and we tried it on his boat which was also an 18ft (don't know brand of boat) with an 85HP Yamaha 2-stroke. With 3 persons on board it produced between 5-6 knots at full throttle. This guy was satisfied and I concluded the deal.

[Moonwalker]

@skip - Can you please elaborate further why twin engines are a no go? I have this idea in mind that having 2x50hp is better than having 1x100hp. The boat must be able to plane with a single motor though so that if one fails you will still achieve a reasonable speed (10-15knt).

[Moonwalker]

@salmon - go to kaptan boats and ask them to fit the extension on outboard motor platform. This will solve the weight issue.

[malvizzu]

I'm no expert at all but some research on ETEC shows as follows:

E50DSL (50HP)    = 109kg (P/W Ratio 0.459)
E90DSL (90HP)    = 145kg (P/W Ratio 0.621)
E115DSL (115HP) = 170KG (P/W Ratio 0.676)
E130DPL/DSL (130hp) = 177kgs (P/W Ratio 0.734)

Suzuki DF140 4 Stroke (140hp) = 186kgs (P/W Ratio 0.753)

So definitely with 2 x 50HP one would have too much weight to carry and thus more fuel consumption. Is it worth the fuel consumption when one engine is most of the time not running, just as a back up. It's just my opinion.

I would have preferred my 9.9HP Mariner 2-stroke as a back-up than a 5-6HP 4-stroke I have to buy for my boat but unfortunately space on the transom did not permit

[skip]

skip i was referring having more control of the boat between using one engine and using the aux in a rough or windy day. you can control better the boat with one engine in this situation. fuel burn i think it will be the same or better with one 50 hp because you have to give nearly full throttle to the 15 hp and even 4-stroke consume a lot of fuel when they are not running at an ideal speed compared to the fuel being used.

i know who has a 9.9 hp an a 16 ft and can only do maximum 5 kts. maybe it depends also from the boat.

I ran for just over 4 hours using 12 litres of fuel at 6.0 - 6.5 knots with 3 people on board and full fuel when using my aux engine - I totally agree that its not so comfortable to control at all but if used as an emergency engine you could set the throttle, tighten and then use the main engine and wheel as a rudder to get your home.

@skip - Can you please elaborate further why twin engines are a no go? I have this idea in mind that having 2x50hp is better than having 1x100hp. The boat must be able to plane with a single motor though so that if one fails you will still achieve a reasonable speed (10-15knt).

Twin engines wouldn't be my first choice in this kind of horsepower range for the reasons stated above in the preceeding posts. With no counter rotation, aside from some of the points raised by Busu there simply aren't enough benefits.

Small twins like 2x50 mean - higher initial purchase cost, more complicated rigging up to the centre console, double the cost when it comes to servicing (2 oil filters, 2 drive gear oils to change, engine oil change, and all other service related items) for in my opinion little to no benefit whatsoever.

In the past I was always, twins are the way to go offshore until I started reading boat test reviews and listening to people on forums in the USA about their experiences. On some boats you have to have twins, especially the larger ones, but on smaller boats I think it's an overkill with no tangible benefits.

I don't have any prices handy but I would say that 2 x 50hp 4 strokes would cost alot more than a single 115/130/140hp engine and bear in mind that if you already own an emergency aux engine why buy twins? Call me crazy but this year I even removed my aux engine from my boat and simply ran with the main engine and my PLB. The boat ran better, used less fuel and the transom looks a lot nicer with an aux hanging off the side.

Ultimately its a matter of preference but I would be inclined to say that a boat with twin 50's would use more fuel overall than a boat with a single 115/130/140hp engine. In addition smaller boats tend not to have a wide transom forcing you to install the engines very close together further reducing the handling benefits of twin engines and also not being able to benefit from putting one F and one in R to spin the boat on its axis when maneouvering.

To really determine performance and fuel burn you would have to compare the set ups. I know that Kaptan Jnr has 2 x 50hp Tohatsu TLDIs, Moonwalker you have a single DF90 if I'm not mistaken on the same boat? A proper test would involve using inline fuel flow sensors but you could do it the old fashioned way, put in a fixed amount of fuel, the same on each boat, have the same overall load and then run together abeam at the same speeds etc and evaluate speed performance and fuel burn.

If you utilise 2x50hp as a reference and you lose one engine, the only way you will get the boat to plane would be to jump in the water and change the prop to a lower pitch which most ppl would find a hassle.
Otherwise as previously explained all you have is a big expensive aux engine (the 2nd working 50hp) - I liked Busu's point about if the wind picks up you stand a better chance of maintaining the same 6 knot speed in a Force 4 with a 50hp versus a 15hp aux.

I had far too much weight at the stern of my boat with the primary 90hp, 9.8hp aux, 2x50L fuel and 1 x40L water all at the stern and it really affects the handling of the boat. Weight is the #1 enemy on smaller boats especially if its all at the stern!

Benri can confirm that the Suzuki DF140 sips fuel - on his 20 foot boat heavily loaded with fuel and people the digital flow gauge was showing only 16.5 litres per hour burn at around 21 knots. That's less than I use on my 18 footer with a 90!!

[Meccanic]

Just a reminder that MECCA has launched the new 4 Stroke VERADO Outboards and all backed up with 5 years Guarantee. Since these are made in USA, they are paid in dollars therefore cheapest prices guaranteed.
Thanks

Nichol

[skip]

Mercury Verado 150hp - 213kgs (P/W Ratio 0.649)

Mercury Optimax 125hp - 170kgs (P/W Ratio 0.735)
Mercury Optimax 135hp - 195kgs (P/W Ratio 0.692)

Mercury Optimax 150hp - 195kgs (P/W Ratio 0.769)

[Moonwalker]

@malvizzu - having 2x50HP  you would run them at the same time not using one as backup.

@skip - thanks for the detailed post. I dont intend to change my motor on my boat any time soon since I'm satisfied with it. I have the boat for over 4 years now and go a day out fishing on average every  2 weeks. The DF90 always started and performed without any problems and never had to use the auxiliary.
I am asking about 2 motors for a bigger boat when I decide to upgrade in the future. On a 22-25 footer I think a twin outboard setup (2x125 or 2x150) should be a good choice.
However I heared some owners of boats with twin outboards saying that boat will not plane with just one outboard and with one outboard OFF speed is max of 7knt. Since the only advantage of having twin outboards is redundancy, this will not make much sense.
My idea of twin outboards is for redundancy but the boat must be able to plane if one motor goes dead. Otherwise a big motor and a smaller auxiliary should be the choice.

[shanook]

Lets imagine u are out fishing 20 miles out or far far away and although it is calm where u are, but the weather has picked up closer to shore and gradually picking up. By the time u are set to leave u have a strong head wind with strong currents coming from shore.
ur engine has a problem and u start the auxiliary 15/18 hp.......after an hour u realise that u are not making much headway...........two hours after u are still struggling and u start to worry.......light is dwindling and believe me, u start to pray
hopefully u dont panic cause that will make it worse......
this is a scenario that those who have been boating must have encountered or know of someone who was in that situation.
Never mind the suggestion of having an diesel inboard and a petrol outboard......yes nice good idea, u have to carry at least twice the expected trip in diesel for safety and twice the amount in petrol......Ha who was talking about extra weight
And the suggestion a bit less drastic of 4 stroke and 2 stroke. make sure u can access the 4 stroke fuel tank.........dont forget u are not in calm seas.
I had a passenger and because I ran out of diesel (and I have one engine that stops before the other as a warning sign that i am out of diesel), as soon as I told him dont worry we are out of diesel he went WHITE and we were about 15 miles out, alungi season, it was 3 pm and the sea just a bit choppy.
Skip I dont blame u that u took off the auxiliary, its a dead weight in rough seas, in calm seas if u dont have it then its no problem if u can send a distress call there is no bad feeling that u get with a rough sea.
I still think its better for a boat to have one single big engine....less initial cost, more balance, less maintenance expenses, but not as safe a having a twin powered boat, and i dont mean an auxiliary.
so its a matter or either buying one outboard and buying the necessary safety equipment, and maybe go out with another boat.
or buying a twin engine and still buy the necessary safety equipment, but safer to go out on ur secret fishing ground.

[fishfinder]

With my Suzuki DF115 and loaded with my fishing gear and another passenger currently i can reach 26 knots and empty i can do 30-31knots. these readings are achieved from a Lowrance GPS not from a speedometer.

as Moonwalker said an additional bracket under the baiting platform will reducing the air which gets trapped under it and will definetly help by rising the boat from the motor weight. (at last my theory was right

in my opinion If i have to buy another boat I would go for Twin identical engines and will definetly choose the biggest possible so that I could plan the boat or troll even with one motor. who ever uses twin motors knows that they are better for fishing especially with bottom long lines cause you can put one on reverse and the other forward and you can turn on any side you want.

BUT Since you have a 50hp and you have also an auxiliary and you're definetly not satisfied with the weight I would choose the new Suzuki DF90 which is a very good engine running on a very low fuel consumpion and powerful as my DF115, and keep the auxiliary.

Suzuki are very reliable motors and one other important factor when choosing a motor one must consider the prices of the parts cause I've heard a lot of people scrapping outboards cause the parts are too much expensive to repair.

Is there any one who knows if the new 2 strokes Etec's can handle slow speed for over 12hours? cause with my Suzuki I've never had any problems!!


Fishfinder

[lazyfisherman]

I am definitely no expert on boats but i would guess that the power of the auxilliary engine necessary would depend on the boat's hull shape at least as much as on weight and length. On the 15 foot RIB freedive found that a 4 hp outboard is next to useless as an auxiliary. I guess that it would also be of very limited use for a modern, high speed planing non RIB boat of similar size in anything but the calmest condition. However I think that for a 14 or 15 foot traditional shaped, round bottom hull e.g. a frejgatina or kajjik a 4 hp auxilliary could be sufficient. Traditional displacement boats are very slow but require very little power to move. Remember how many of the old 12 -13 foot frejgatini used to be powered with just a 1.5 hp inboard stuart turner engine!

[skip]

This is the only way we can find the right solution but everyone posting and helping each other. Being a small market we don't have the luxury of being able to try out the same boat powered by different hp or bands, it's only when fellow boat owners posted their numbers and experiences that it can help someone decide. Dealers locally tend to contact owners and ask if they will take out a potential customer for a test run, but through the forum we can get some first hand good information as well.

One of the reasons why on say twin 50's a boat won't plane has to do with the diameter and pitch of the props versus the load of the boat. When both are running properly the boat is pitched that the load is spread over the 2 engines, but when you're stuck with one, you need to reduce diameter and pitch to help the prop spin up and handle the load. For the prop its like you left port with 1 person on board and are trying to come back with 10 people on board, so just like when you add weight on a boat you reduce pitch and sometimes even diameter, this is what is usually required when coming back in on twin's that won't let the boat plane on 1 engine with std prop config.

It would be interesting if we could arrange with Kaptan Boats and Kaptan Jnr to try and find a lower pitch prop for his 50TLDI's and see what effect that has when running on 1 engine - ie. can the boat get up on the plane with a prop swap and if so what pitchxdiameter is needed to achieve this - what speed can be attained and what's the fuel burn.

On bigger boats I think I would still go for a twin outboard set up - as we all know engines cost serious money, but if there's one piece of advice I'd like to give it's this: Don't rush to purchase and then compromise on hp due to budget constraints. Better to wait another six months and save a bit more to get as close to the max rated hp for that boat. My father always used to tell me, come within 10% of the max rated hp by the boat builder, never less! So if max hp is 200hp, don't drop below 180hp. In Malta we need to also bear in mind two other factors that reduce engine power: 1) High humidity levels (notice how your boat runs better in winter) and 2) Mediocre fuel quality

Skip - Out!

[Moonwalker]

Changing the prop while out at sea is not something I would even think about. Its better to keep the lower pitch props and have your mind at rest that if one fails you can still plane the boat with one motor.

[fishfinder]

In the past I used to have a 50hp 4 stroke on my boat and I could plan the boat only when it was completely empty and the max speed was 17 knots. After having my boat for a couple of years I would say that if my bracket was modified as Moonwalker did I would plan the boat much better and may be achieve more knots. still at that time I was planning to buy his twin brother but since weight and a bigger price was involved we had to go for the 115hp.

I fully agree with skip regarding HP, always go for the biggest engine cause it's always good to have extra power than less and sometimes fuel economy becomes cheaper as well since the motor will be working on lower revs.