Need some help on a project

[kurtfalcon]

Hi guys next summer I'll be doing a project for the Systems of Knowledge Matsec (Maltese Examination board) as part of my A level certificate. It is entitled " The new era of two-stroke outboards". The main targets of my project are the TLDI, Etec and Optimax. I've already been promised support from Mecca and some other agents but I would also need some information from user of these outboards. I wish to thank KaptanJr since he already started giving me info on his newly acquired TLDIs. Are there any other owners of the overstated outboard brands who wish to help me?

Thanks guys

Kurt F

[SPNOTTA]

new era of two stroke? I know nothing of these engines but mark my words ..."new era" is IMHO is a bad idea...the EU is try to control hydrocarbon emissions and 2-stroke oil was/is/will be heavily tageted. Major pollutant. I think "dying era" would be more appropriate unless the project is a historical one.

Better to check a bit about the aforementioned, or al least keep it in mind before heading on this project.

[kurtfalcon]

All the brands I've mentioned have meet the EPA standards. My project is to target the environmental benefits of these engines i.e. fuel consumption and noise pollution also play a part. "New era" because as far as I know these Direct injection outboards (apart from optimax) have been on the market since 2004 or so. The thing is that I have to speak about the advantages of these engines and when they are compared to their 4 stroke relatives they have more. They consume the same if not less petrol, are less bulky, less heavy on the transom and most of all less maintenance and servicing hungry.

Thank you very much for your help though I would have appreciated more if you told me of persons who own these outboards.

[skip]

Spnotta I'm afraid you've seen 2 stroke and got it all wrong mate. Do some research on ETECs and Low Pressure Direct Injection as used by Mercury and Tohatsu licensed from Orbital of Austrailia and you will see that they match and in areas improve upon the emissions of a 4 stroke. Have a read here http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/boat/sales/tldifaq.html

They use a 2 stroke block but all the rest top end etc is fully ECU controlled and managed. The oil comes from a separate tank and is mixed and controlled by the ECU, not standard 50:1 ratio or anything like that, in fact the ECU leans or riches the mix out accordingly. Take a look at California one of the strictest places in the world for emissions and see how they rate these new direct injection 2 strokes, same with some lake forgot the name and where.

Kurt I think it's a very good project to be researching for your systems of knowledge, I suggest you contact Orbital http://www.orbeng.com.au and see what info they can provide you with. You might want to also contact Marine Power Europe (Mercury)
http://www.brunswickmarineemea.com and also Bombardier

Bombardier Recreational Products Europe N.V.
Chemin de Messidor 5-7
CH-1006 Lausanne
Switzerland
Tel: +41.21.318.78.00
Fax: + 41.21.318.78.38

Ask Nichol from Mecca to give you the latest Tohatsu catalogue which explains the technology pretty well in the first few pages along with some nice schematics, or you can download and have a look here http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/boat/download/pdf/tohatsu_ww.pdf

Maybe he can get you a contact at Tohatsu who could provide some information.

Kurt I have a 90TLDI so if you need any info/feedback let me know.

Anglers own a 150 Optimax
A couple of guys own ETECs, gottie has a 90 ETEC I believe and not sure who else. Click on the forum button at the top and then use the search box "ETEC"

[SPNOTTA]

I must admit I am pretty impressed by these 2 stroke engines!!!!
Yet the info is from a .com (commercial site).
Low emissions, yet it still is throwing hydrocarbons in the air from burning oil. I mean, I wonder how strong are the manufacturers claims of rivaling the respective 4-strokes of the same class in emissions and consumptions. From the small search I performed I already found some keywords and phrases that might indicate claims built on shaky grounds for this groundbreaking technology.

good luck for your project (ambitious and controvertial) ....good topic choice... and may I suggest to try to obtain data that is not only derived from commercial websites but also from other organizations, databases, scientific papers, general public, news and journals that are peer reviewed.

[kurtfalcon]

Thank you very much Spnotta for your interest in helping me. To a point you are right when saying that they emit more Hydrocarbons. Two strokes have 2 star EPA rating while 4s have 3. To tell you the truth in the beginning I was going to do it on 4s but due to several circumstances that arouse I changed my mind. The thing is that for the sake of this project I have to do at least 12 'visits'. This means that I have to speak to speak to at least 12 people amongst of which outboard owners. The thing is that I personally know more people who own these type of 2stks than 4s. If it wasn't for the visits I would have gone for the 4s but.


skip thank you for your answer. I will contact you with a PM if not a problem.

[anglers]

I own am optimax 150 (Mercury). The only reason why I bought an optimax was because Trophy boats (America) Suggested that I gat an optimax instead of a Verado engine as the optimax is much more fuel efficent than the Verado. This was also passed to me on paper.
I have tested the outboard through the summer and I am very happy with its performance, even for trolling is very good even at the lowest revs and for long period of time.
Regarding the mixing of oil, it doesn't consume a lot and I simply forget about the oil tank sometimes.
As I always said the only drawback optimax engines have compared to the Verados is the noise. If you love to hear the load roar of a V6 engine or you just love showing of in Comino with a powerboat then this is the engine for you. On the other hand if you want to relax with your family or to spend a day out trolling and going into very long distances than I would say that the noise will bother you sometimes.

You can see a pic of my boat in the gallery and most probably the boat will be in the boat show next month.........

[Kaptan Jr]

These 2 strokes are brilliant. My twin TLDI's are making a massive working. Last sunday I spent 12 hours on the sea and 7 of them trolling at very low speed and had brilliant results with the engines performing very good. The fuel economy is very good and also as angler i forgot about the oil. At high revs the engines respond very well also and obtaining plaining speed in a  very short time. i think that these modern 2 strokes are better than 4 strokes and are really the NEW ERA!!!!!!

[Destination Sea]

Hi
I will have an 90 Etec next summer so cant give you any info yet. However by end of summer I will be able to do so if you still require it. If you require any technical help on eith the TLDI or Etec just let me know.

[SPNOTTA]

i think that these modern 2 strokes are better than 4 strokes and are really the NEW ERA!!!!!!

Don't wish to bust your bubble but the US...EPA most likely might be lowering hydrocarbon (potential carcinogen and raw material for secondary pollutants.*) ppm levels emission standards in the near future. Obviously the EU will follow...3 way catalytic converters don't go very well with 2 strokes due to platinum/rhodium poisining.

EU, US legislative directives and regulations most probably will obligate manufacturers to shove catalytic converters into the respective engines , and comply to respective catalyser lifespan and emission regulations.

*Secondary pollutants (originating from primary pollutants released in the air) are the building blocks of the infamous photochemical smog consisting of ozone, nitrogen dioxide, peroxyacetyl nitrate, particulate matter and other secondary products. The aforementioned ingredients are of detriment to the environment, eyes/respiratory system and overall health.

[kurtfalcon]

Spnotta int tidhol fil wikipedia tfittex "EPA" u li jitla tamillu copy u paste fil forum. Il- BRP li jaghmlu l-evinrude qieghdin jaghmlu u jizviluppaw E-tecs godda. Kieku kienu ha jaqtawom mil-Eu kienu jivvintaw xi haga differenti. Thank you lil bqija talli qed tghinuni.

[SPNOTTA]

Actually I did not enter wikipedia, my posts are my own words from my own research and studies...if I had to copy and paste I would cite the author and provenance. Try to google search for any of the phrases I posted...you will find my posts are my own.

I  have studied these topics with a foreign university. I am also helping you in providing a different perspective for your project.

[gottie]

Hi,  I have had my e-tec 90 HP for three yeas and I am very satisfied with it. Consumption is equivalent or less than 4 strokes and I have never seen any smoke whatsoever from it.

In the three years that I have owned the e-tec I have never turned the key twice. It always starts with the first turn even when it is idle for weeks.

Emissions wise, It is a 3 star, just like EFI four strokes. When I run it in the garage during winter, I realise that there is less of a smell than when I start my car in the garage.

Also, the oil designed from the e-tec is specially formulated and burns up completely with the fuel. It then also depends on what type of oil you use. With e-tec you have a choice, depending on how you set the engine management module. If you use XD 100 oil, usage is minimal.

Most of the smoke from the old 2 strokes still comes from unburned fuel so those blaming only the oil for the old 2 stroke emissions are not totally correct. Its the unburned fuel that makes most of the smoke, although the normal two stroke oil does contribute to the smoke and emissions too.

With the e-tec direct injection system no fuel is wasted as it is all burned up. That's why the result is a cleaner burn and a very much inproved fuel efficiency.

[SPNOTTA]

I understand these 2 strokes have better burn and oil dosaging but it will never compare to four stroke equivalent  in emissions for the simple reason that is burning oil together with the fuel (a cocktail comprising of a few hundred different hydrocarbons ranging from C4 to C12 together with additives such as detergents, oxygenates and antioxidants).

Even if the oil is completely (which is impossible) burnt into hydrogen and carbon dioxide ( a greenhouse gas) there would still be more of the latter compound.

Observing no smoke and lack of pungent odour does not necessarily mean no harmful emissions.

[kurtfalcon]

My question for Spnotta is why you say this? 

I think "dying era" would be more appropriate