Federation Meeting with Fisheries Board Sub Committee for new Sport/Recreational

[shanook]

Granitu I think you are young yes. Laws no matter how you do them are there for interpretation. That's why there are lawyers.
From the amateur side we have to take care of our side and not to see what is best for tm or fcd.
Using your argument if we state what cannot be used and something is left out like in your example gamgmu then it is added later yes simply by the directorate to meet with concerned and hey presto done....... Very nice but does it happen that way here in Malta......no way....when the regulations were imposed on us.....5/6 years ago (when the MFB) were created and we seem to have had to wait till now to get a change in the simple surface lines, in the hgiega.....imagine if we leave the hydraulic winch for the bottom lines......that will take forever..... Your lack of experience in how things work here and how much pressure the powers that be can excert, make you reason that way.
Take a simple matter as to how the sub committee is made up. The cooperative which has nothing to do with recreational fishing is PROPOSING what we should or shouldn't do.

[shanook]

It would be a simple matter if the directorate wants to change the members (not gogo) of the subcommittee and have just the people concerned only.
I think the brief for this sub committee speaks clear what is to be discussed. This is like saying lets discuss the needs of Nurses and I will be placed on that board wouldn't that be an insult to the profession. (Yes I am affected by the dos and don'ts of nurses as when I go to hospital they are the first contact, but that doesn't give me the right to speak in their name)
There will be the brief...the needs of pensioners and then when 'the pensioners needs' and 'the nurses needs, conflict.......then we talk, discuss, propose and decide.

[Granitu]

Granitu I think you are young yes. Laws no matter how you do them are there for interpretation. That's why there are lawyers.
From the amateur side we have to take care of our side and not to see what is best for tm or fcd.
Using your argument if we state what cannot be used and something is left out like in your example gamgmu then it is added later yes simply by the directorate to meet with concerned and hey presto done....... Very nice but does it happen that way here in Malta......no way....when the regulations were imposed on us.....5/6 years ago (when the MFB) were created and we seem to have had to wait till now to get a change in the simple surface lines, in the hgiega.....imagine if we leave the hydraulic winch for the bottom lines......that will take forever..... Your lack of experience in how things work here and how much pressure the powers that be can excert, make you reason that way.
Take a simple matter as to how the sub committee is made up. The cooperative which has nothing to do with recreational fishing is PROPOSING what we should or shouldn't do.

Shanook, even if young, i know how things work in Malta. However, you always hope and do things that they will change in the better.

I can use the same argument as you are doing. Basically you are too old and have been taken too much for a ride and rightly lost hope my friend. I am young and still hope and want to go to the better, because it is the right thing to do. Christ sake, I cannot give up on anything at 23 years of age.

If I had to use your attitude, I would stop going to work. Because sometimes I am underpaid or not paid at all, and it is more worth living on the govn. Benefits. But i choose not to. In life I was taught that you choose your attitude and behavior and you set your limits, not others.

Also, I may ask you, but if we lose hope that things will change to the better, why are we bothering?

Lawyers have their job and i think you have been long enough in the trade to understand that which ever law you draft, it will be never perfect.

I give tax advises to clients shanook residing in foreign jurisdictions that update the law frequently and yet they miss out points. The world is not perfect, and the law will never be. I earn money from interpreting the law, Shanook!

Ultimately, it sums up to our behavior, how much we respect the law and the authorities... how much they impose and deter law breaking activities. There are authorities in Malta who are very efficient shanook and there is always a chance for change.

[Gogo]

shanook "Take a simple matter as to how the sub committee is made up. The cooperative which has nothing to do with recreational fishing is PROPOSING what we should or shouldn't do". 
Do you mean that when regulations dealing with Nets( xbieki) and trawling (tkarkir) are revivsed during the Fisheries Board Meeting then I should remain silent or leave the room. If so that will releive me from most arguments during such meetings. These gears are prohibited to amateur fishermen and are solely used by commercial fishermen. Once again thank you.

Gogo

[skip]

This discussion reflects the sentiments and passion that we feel towards our hobby, but it also highlights the sacrifice in terms of time and dedication being made by Gogo. First and foremost in his role on the board and sub-committee but also by taking the time to read and reply to the various comments. When you are doing these things for free, it is understandable to sometimes say to yourself "Why am I troubling myself with all this hassle....and for what....". We must applaud, appreciate and support Gogo's efforts by providing constructive critism, guidance, concerns and even ideas that can be used during his discussions.

Nonetheless I do feel that the majority on this sub-committee should be recreational recreational representatives, rather than the minority even if at this stage the cooperatives aren't objecting much, they still have a larger presence both on the sub-committee and overall board.

I am know I am rushing ahead, but perhaps Dr. Joe you could jot down a note that AFM and TM personnel who will be on active duty patrolling are seas will need to be made fully aware and be fully briefed ideally through training courses once things have been finalised.

Due to the confusing state of the currently rules and regulations they have no clear idea of what they should be enforcing and sometimes really get themselves and ultimately us in a real mess once they bring out their enforcement 'arm'.

I also agree that coming up with a list of approved gear can be dangerous for the reasons discussed.....like outriggers there are things like Spreader bars, artifical birds, kites used to suspend live baits etc and so the list gets pretty endless.

I know its been a long time in the making to get this sub-committee formed, but equally well is there a similar committee addressing the commercial sector? I know there are changes going on like trawlers being scrapped etc but potentially the largest number of vessels are MFBs and they are the ones who need the most amount of regulation and the legal notices are outdated for that sector as well. Seems like a revamp across the board is needed and would probably produce a more effective outcome.

Recreational fishers are understandbly keen to protect their hobby, but I say this to everyone reading this topic, you must all appreciate that given the rampant practice of selling one's catch especially when it comes to the larger pelagic species, we are not viewed in a very good light. During the Alungi season people are trying to offload their catch to cover expenses, same goes for deep bottom fishing, jigging, spearfishing etc. There's no point beating around the bush because I know this is what Dr. Joe often has to face during his meetings when the cooperatives throw this argument across the table. It is a double edged sword with people saying why should I respect the rules if the commercial sector are always breaking the rules themselves, catching undersized fish, selling at sea etc etc.

[The_Gaffer]

I fear that an argument on 'selling one's catch' would open up Pandora's box.  Everybody has a skeleton in his cupboard, everybody. Some have one, some have 2, others have many.

[Gogo]

Thank you Nick for your personal comments in my regards and also for pointing out certain attitudes which I dare not mention in this forum.
As to the sub committee as its name implies is derived from the Main Fisheries Board, created to discuss specific items which influence certain stakeholders and is dismantled once its job  is finished.
The Fisheries Board has representatives from two cooperatives (4), Fish Farms (2) Fish retailers (2), Mepa (1), FCD (3 including chairman), Amateur Fishermen (1), AFM (1) and TM (1), Notary Tonio Spiteri as part of the legal counsellors. Hope I included every sector. MTA is not present.
So the sub committee had to be set up from sectors that recreational fishing can influence. One from each namely amateur fisherman, cooperatives, TM, FCD, AFM and chairman present on the Fisheries Board had to be nominated. Since recreational fishing is also practiced in the Tourism sector a representative was nominated from MTA. One should note that no where in law is mentioned Fishing Tourism. The Diving Harpoon Sector also is missing as this club is not associated with the Amateur Fishing Federation. So their representatives have been asked to participate and be consulted.
As to Commercial Fisheries yes that is the main scope of  the Fisheries Board where there are six persons representing cooperatives and Fish Farms together with those mentioned above. Here I am heavily out numbered and sometimes massacred even with insults as being a medical doctor, etc.......
As to "like outriggers there are things like Spreader bars, artificial birds, kites used to suspend live baits etc" since in my opinion these are used in trolling and trolling (rixa) is allowed such equipment is allowed. To be more clear one adds 'all equipment used in trolling'.
Joe (Gaffer) when we learn to denounce our skeletons then that would be the day when we can fight back without fear any adversary.
Remember even IGFA defines recreational fishing as non profit making.
Maybe that is what Shanook meant in an earlier post by discussing issues in one's house.

Gogo

[The_Gaffer]

Joe (Gaffer) when we learn to denounce our skeletons then that would be the day when we can fight back without fear any adversary.
Remember even IGFA defines recreational fishing as non profit making.
Maybe that is what Shanook meant in an earlier post by discussing issues in one's house.

Gogo


Gogo, minn jgholli idejh, kullhadd ghandu xi jxomm!!

Nispera li ta haddiehor ma jintinx iktar minn taghna.


In other words Gogo, everybody has skeletons in his cupboards.

[shanook]

This is my last post in this thread..it seems that there is a consensus that others should propose and oppose what we should or shouldnt do. And this in the sub comittee imagine what is going to happen later.......ommi ma. opps shouldnt be negative u le dawn jaqbzu ghalina. kollox sew.

Granitu WTF are u talking about, I never objected to new regulations or whatever, my only concern is to do things that wont hurt the amateur fisherman. When you give advice to your clients you make sure that your client makes the best use of the laws (you dont go agaisnt it, u just make the best use of it) and thats what I want, to make the best use of the law. Your argument was on the TM side what if they dont say we cannot use this and that. heck that will be their problem but we are safeguarded. On the other hand if we leave something out it will be our problem and we will have to sort it out savvy

Thanks a lot for listening to my lamentations........ I will now say Good Luck to all and sundry.

[Gogo]

Joe Gaffer you know me and I know you. We have to work side by side. Maybe you are right that 'everybody' has skeletons in his cupboard. So why not close this discussion and be happy with our skeletons. 
For sure I have one which constantly corrodes me.
I will never organize or take part as officer in Amateur Fishing Competitions unless .......... you know what.
I do not expect a reply preferably not.
Shanook I do not agree that you close your contribution on this thread. You have different ideas who can propose or not to the sub committee. OK that is your opinion. I do not know how a sub committee of one or more person/s with only the amateur fisherman proposals can work. These proposals will go to higher level and................? as many a time happened in the past. However your contribution is greatly appreciated.
Gogo

[Granitu]

I am not going to bother posting anymore in this thread..it seems that there is a consensus that others should propose and oppose what we should or shouldnt do. And this in the sub comittee imagine what is going to happen later.......ommi ma. opps shouldnt be negative u le dawn jaqbzu ghalina. kollox sew.

Granitu WTF are u talking about, I never objected to new regulations or whatever, my only concern is to do things that wont hurt the amateur fisherman. When you give advice to your clients you make sure that your client makes the best use of the laws (you dont go agaisnt it, u just make the best use of it) and thats what I want, to make the best use of the law. Your argument was on the TM side what if they dont say we cannot use this and that. heck that will be their problem but we are safeguarded. On the other hand if we leave something out it will be our problem and we will have to sort it out savvy

Thanks a lot for listening to my lamentations........ I will now say Good Luck to all and sundry.

When there is an imminent change going on it is useless being destructive. What really counts is that the appropriate studies are done and we hope that we can drive the changes in law to:-

Protect our decreasing fish stock ( you remember ages ago how more productive and full of life seas were, today???)
Accept we are fellow enthusaist and maybe the authorities ease off on some currently banned fishing practices like trolling for tuna (lately, it has been recognized that tuna stocks are on the increase) - this was banned as authorities do not trust us.
Regulate some so called recreational fisherman that instead they work at sea.

I never told you object regulations. BUT YOU FEAR CHANGE. and change is a part of life my friend. I won't comment on the rest as it is common sense shanook. I am not on TM side by any way. It is one of the highly inefficient dept in malta together with the fisheries. We should all hope they wake up and consider more stakeholders, but to do so, we have to keep an eye of what is done and trust them.

If something is left out shanook out of what you can use and what you cannot use it becomes a grey area. And still, it is a very hard miss. We mainly fish with artificial lures, live bait, dead bait, rods, reels, lines, some bouges traps and others... When you say artificial lures, you cover jigging, squids for lampuki, ect...

The ultimate result should lead that the authority realizes that some business (full time and part time) fishing practice is beyond 'sustainable fishing' and hopefully acts on it.

Then maybe you, myself and the generations to come can enjoy marine wildlife.

[The_Gaffer]

I am not going to bother posting anymore in this thread..it seems that there is a consensus that others should propose and oppose what we should or shouldnt do. And this in the sub comittee imagine what is going to happen later.......ommi ma. opps shouldnt be negative u le dawn jaqbzu ghalina. kollox sew.

Granitu WTF are u talking about, I never objected to new regulations or whatever, my only concern is to do things that wont hurt the amateur fisherman. When you give advice to your clients you make sure that your client makes the best use of the laws (you dont go agaisnt it, u just make the best use of it) and thats what I want, to make the best use of the law. Your argument was on the TM side what if they dont say we cannot use this and that. heck that will be their problem but we are safeguarded. On the other hand if we leave something out it will be our problem and we will have to sort it out savvy

Thanks a lot for listening to my lamentations........ I will now say Good Luck to all and sundry.

Whatever gave you that impression Tony, there is no consensus.  I for one have been advocating for these discussions to stop from the very beginning of this thread.  I will make these representations when the MFF meet representatives of the PL and PN.  
I think there is too much going on behind the recreational fisherman's back.  There seems to be a hidden agenda somewhere...I'm jut not convinced yet if this is coming from the FCD, the cooperatives, the other stakeholders, or all of them together.  But, there is something going on for sure.
You simply do not start discussions with a number of entites 2 to 3 months before a general election.  Which discussions will have an impact on 1000s of recreational fishermen.  Something is not right.  I still stand by what I said, being thaqt it is sheer arrogance on the part of all stakeholders involved, including Dr. Joe, to be discussing rules and regulations governing recreational fishermen, and THERE IS NOT ONE RECREATIONAL FISHERMAN PRESENT IN THESE DISCUSSIONS.  Correct me if I am wrong Gogo, but your boat is registered MFB, correct?

[caldaland]

For cryin out loud gaffer.....................Ive been begging you to give me the chance to explain to you what that hidden agenda is!!!!!!!
Whats keeping you from having a chat with me? Its totally free of charge.

[The_Gaffer]

send me your mobile number via PM and I'll call u now

[caldaland]

i will call you in a minute