Hi guys next summer I'll be doing a project for the Systems of Knowledge Matsec (Maltese Examination board) as part of my A level certificate. It is entitled " The new era of two-stroke outboards". The main targets of my project are the TLDI, Etec and Optimax. I've already been promised support from Mecca and some other agents but I would also need some information from user of these outboards. I wish to thank KaptanJr since he already started giving me info on his newly acquired TLDIs. Are there any other owners of the overstated outboard brands who wish to help me?
Thanks guys
Kurt F
new era of two stroke? I know nothing of these engines but mark my words ..."new era" is IMHO is a bad idea...the EU is try to control hydrocarbon emissions and 2-stroke oil was/is/will be heavily tageted. Major pollutant. I think "dying era" would be more appropriate unless the project is a historical one.
Better to check a bit about the aforementioned, or al least keep it in mind before heading on this project.
All the brands I've mentioned have meet the EPA standards. My project is to target the environmental benefits of these engines i.e. fuel consumption and noise pollution also play a part. "New era" because as far as I know these Direct injection outboards (apart from optimax) have been on the market since 2004 or so. The thing is that I have to speak about the advantages of these engines and when they are compared to their 4 stroke relatives they have more. They consume the same if not less petrol, are less bulky, less heavy on the transom and most of all less maintenance and servicing hungry.
Thank you very much for your help though I would have appreciated more if you told me of persons who own these outboards.
Spnotta I'm afraid you've seen 2 stroke and got it all wrong mate. Do some research on ETECs and Low Pressure Direct Injection as used by Mercury and Tohatsu licensed from Orbital of Austrailia and you will see that they match and in areas improve upon the emissions of a 4 stroke. Have a read here http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/boat/sales/tldifaq.html
They use a 2 stroke block but all the rest top end etc is fully ECU controlled and managed. The oil comes from a separate tank and is mixed and controlled by the ECU, not standard 50:1 ratio or anything like that, in fact the ECU leans or riches the mix out accordingly. Take a look at California one of the strictest places in the world for emissions and see how they rate these new direct injection 2 strokes, same with some lake forgot the name and where.
Kurt I think it's a very good project to be researching for your systems of knowledge, I suggest you contact Orbital http://www.orbeng.com.au and see what info they can provide you with. You might want to also contact Marine Power Europe (Mercury)
http://www.brunswickmarineemea.com and also Bombardier
Bombardier Recreational Products Europe N.V.
Chemin de Messidor 5-7
CH-1006 Lausanne
Switzerland
Tel: +41.21.318.78.00
Fax: + 41.21.318.78.38
Ask Nichol from Mecca to give you the latest Tohatsu catalogue which explains the technology pretty well in the first few pages along with some nice schematics, or you can download and have a look here http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/boat/download/pdf/tohatsu_ww.pdf
Maybe he can get you a contact at Tohatsu who could provide some information.
Kurt I have a 90TLDI so if you need any info/feedback let me know.
Anglers own a 150 Optimax
A couple of guys own ETECs, gottie has a 90 ETEC I believe and not sure who else. Click on the forum button at the top and then use the search box "ETEC"
I must admit I am pretty impressed by these 2 stroke engines!!!!
Yet the info is from a .com (commercial site).
Low emissions, yet it still is throwing hydrocarbons in the air from burning oil. I mean, I wonder how strong are the manufacturers claims of rivaling the respective 4-strokes of the same class in emissions and consumptions. From the small search I performed I already found some keywords and phrases that might indicate claims built on shaky grounds for this groundbreaking technology.
good luck for your project (ambitious and controvertial) ....good topic choice... and may I suggest to try to obtain data that is not only derived from commercial websites but also from other organizations, databases, scientific papers, general public, news and journals that are peer reviewed.
Thank you very much Spnotta for your interest in helping me. To a point you are right when saying that they emit more Hydrocarbons. Two strokes have 2 star EPA rating while 4s have 3. To tell you the truth in the beginning I was going to do it on 4s but due to several circumstances that arouse I changed my mind. The thing is that for the sake of this project I have to do at least 12 'visits'. This means that I have to speak to speak to at least 12 people amongst of which outboard owners. The thing is that I personally know more people who own these type of 2stks than 4s. If it wasn't for the visits I would have gone for the 4s but.
skip thank you for your answer. I will contact you with a PM if not a problem.
I own am optimax 150 (Mercury). The only reason why I bought an optimax was because Trophy boats (America) Suggested that I gat an optimax instead of a Verado engine as the optimax is much more fuel efficent than the Verado. This was also passed to me on paper.
I have tested the outboard through the summer and I am very happy with its performance, even for trolling is very good even at the lowest revs and for long period of time.
Regarding the mixing of oil, it doesn't consume a lot and I simply forget about the oil tank sometimes.
As I always said the only drawback optimax engines have compared to the Verados is the noise. If you love to hear the load roar of a V6 engine or you just love showing of in Comino with a powerboat then this is the engine for you. On the other hand if you want to relax with your family or to spend a day out trolling and going into very long distances than I would say that the noise will bother you sometimes.
You can see a pic of my boat in the gallery and most probably the boat will be in the boat show next month.........
These 2 strokes are brilliant. My twin TLDI's are making a massive working. Last sunday I spent 12 hours on the sea and 7 of them trolling at very low speed and had brilliant results with the engines performing very good. The fuel economy is very good and also as angler i forgot about the oil. At high revs the engines respond very well also and obtaining plaining speed in a very short time. i think that these modern 2 strokes are better than 4 strokes and are really the NEW ERA!!!!!!
Hi
I will have an 90 Etec next summer so cant give you any info yet. However by end of summer I will be able to do so if you still require it. If you require any technical help on eith the TLDI or Etec just let me know.
Quote from: Kaptan Jr on February 24, 2009, 20:35:21 CET
i think that these modern 2 strokes are better than 4 strokes and are really the NEW ERA!!!!!!
Don't wish to bust your bubble but the US...EPA most likely might be lowering hydrocarbon (potential carcinogen and raw material for secondary pollutants.*) ppm levels emission standards in the near future. Obviously the EU will follow...3 way catalytic converters don't go very well with 2 strokes due to platinum/rhodium poisining.
EU, US legislative directives and regulations most probably will obligate manufacturers to shove catalytic converters into the respective engines , and comply to respective catalyser lifespan and emission regulations.
*Secondary pollutants (originating from primary pollutants released in the air) are the building blocks of the infamous photochemical smog consisting of ozone, nitrogen dioxide, peroxyacetyl nitrate, particulate matter and other secondary products. The aforementioned ingredients are of detriment to the environment, eyes/respiratory system and overall health.
Spnotta int tidhol fil wikipedia tfittex "EPA" u li jitla tamillu copy u paste fil forum. Il- BRP li jaghmlu l-evinrude qieghdin jaghmlu u jizviluppaw E-tecs godda. Kieku kienu ha jaqtawom mil-Eu kienu jivvintaw xi haga differenti. Thank you lil bqija talli qed tghinuni.
Actually I did not enter wikipedia, my posts are my own words from my own research and studies...if I had to copy and paste I would cite the author and provenance. :) Try to google search for any of the phrases I posted...you will find my posts are my own. :)
I have studied these topics with a foreign university. I am also helping you in providing a different perspective for your project.
Hi, I have had my e-tec 90 HP for three yeas and I am very satisfied with it. Consumption is equivalent or less than 4 strokes and I have never seen any smoke whatsoever from it.
In the three years that I have owned the e-tec I have never turned the key twice. It always starts with the first turn even when it is idle for weeks.
Emissions wise, It is a 3 star, just like EFI four strokes. When I run it in the garage during winter, I realise that there is less of a smell than when I start my car in the garage.
Also, the oil designed from the e-tec is specially formulated and burns up completely with the fuel. It then also depends on what type of oil you use. With e-tec you have a choice, depending on how you set the engine management module. If you use XD 100 oil, usage is minimal.
Most of the smoke from the old 2 strokes still comes from unburned fuel so those blaming only the oil for the old 2 stroke emissions are not totally correct. Its the unburned fuel that makes most of the smoke, although the normal two stroke oil does contribute to the smoke and emissions too.
With the e-tec direct injection system no fuel is wasted as it is all burned up. That's why the result is a cleaner burn and a very much inproved fuel efficiency.
I understand these 2 strokes have better burn and oil dosaging but it will never compare to four stroke equivalent in emissions for the simple reason that is burning oil together with the fuel (a cocktail comprising of a few hundred different hydrocarbons ranging from C4 to C12 together with additives such as detergents, oxygenates and antioxidants).
Even if the oil is completely (which is impossible) burnt into hydrogen and carbon dioxide ( a greenhouse gas) there would still be more of the latter compound.
Observing no smoke and lack of pungent odour does not necessarily mean no harmful emissions. :)
My question for Spnotta is why you say this?
Quote from: SPNOTTA on February 23, 2009, 19:07:18 CET
I think "dying era" would be more appropriate
Apart from projected legislative directives other BIG manufaturers will use the aformentioned as a weapon/excuse to wipe out competition.
Just have a look at what is currently happening with commercial cars and motorbikes.
In writing "dying era" I never meant to offend your project, on the contrary I stated that it is (ambitious and controvertial).
Don't worry... it is my fault, I always get misunderstood and misinterpreted.
come on spnotta ejja my friend there are people who get your point no worry!
thanks Simon
I think spnotta has pointed out some very interesting things where you can expand your reaserch. When you are doing projects, thats the type of info you need to kickstart. then you just expand on everything, decide on the pipeline and get into as much detail as you wish. At least i used to work that way :) anyway good luck man.
I think that you in your project it would be useful to add how these manufacturers attained low emissions and consumption. High tech engine control systems incorporating oxygen sensors wired up to electronic modules regulate air/fuel ratio as close to the stoichiometric ratio (14.7:1) as possible. The reason behind this development is that CO, HC and NOx emissions are dependent on the A/F ratio. Engines that run on the stoichiometric A/F ratio promote the nearly complete oxidation of CO and HC to CO2 and H2O and nearly complete reduction of NOX to N2.
The name of the project is "The new era of two-stroke outboards".
However this discussion seems to be focusing on "Pollution from new two stroke Outbords", which I think is a bit misleading for the name of the project.
I think the project should dwell on:
1) a comparison between an old 2 stroke and a new 2 stroke (how they work)
2) advantages gained by the 2 stroke direct injection system over carburetted or conventional EFI 2 strokes.
3) General comparison between 2 strokes and 4 strokes, hlighting advantages of a 2 stroke engine for small boats: power to weight ratio, servicing, etc
Emissions could be part of it too but the project should not revolve around the emissions topic.
Lets put is as it is: The fact that the EU and California stringent emissions boards are giving direct injection 2 stroke outboards like (e-tec) a three star emissions rating means that they are surely low emissions outboards. These tests are done by experts who are independent from the manufacturing companies.
One thing is for sure, that a new era for 2 stroke outboards DOES exist and it looks very likely that they are here to stay. So much so that a company like evinrude decided to focus all is resources on the new 2 stroke outboards and ignore 4 strokes completely. Not that there is something wrong with 4 stroke but I think that a 2 stroke engine is more adapt fo small sea craft. More power to wieght ratio, less maintanance, less parts, and now thanks to the new era of 2 strokes more fuel economy than 4 strokes!
the 2 stroke scooters were also thought to conquer the 4-stroke world...manufacturers continued in researching and investing in them but in vain.
lighter, more power to weight ratio true... but fuel economy and emissions better to verify how they really rival their 4 stroke cousins of the same class.
According to this certification, e-tecs two stroke direct injection are even cleaner than four stroke.
That's what I call a new era !
See attachment
the commercial sheet (by no means a certificate) has no value... dated 2006...timeliness is important here
and no references are given.
It does not state that it is cleaner than 4 stroke...read well!!! Even if it did, it would have to be sustained by links to research papers.
Commercial brochures, sheets and sites are the least one would want to look when conducting proper reseach.
Here, now you have it black on white from the US environment protection agency. Straight from the horses' mouth ! Less polluting than 4 strokes !!!! Dont tell me that the US environment protection agency has some particular interest in supporting 2 strokes.
United States Environment Agency Clean Air Excellence Awards Recipients
Evinrude? E-TEC? Clean Air Technology
Bombardier Recreational Products Inc.
http://www.epa.gov/air/caaac/2004awar.html
In 2003, Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. (BRP) introduced Evinrude E-TEC, an outboard engine for marine recreational products, which is based on a two-stroke engine technology. Compared to a similar 2004 four-stroke engine, carbon monoxide emissions with Evinrude E-TEC are typically 30 to 50 percent lower; and at idle are lower by a factor of 50 to 100 times. In addition, Evinrude E-TEC emits 30 to 40 percent less total particulate matter on a weight basis than a similar ?ultra-low emissions? four-stroke outboard. Furthermore, oxides of nitrogen and hydrocarbon emissions for Evinrude E-TEC are similar, if not lower, than a four-stroke outboard. There are no oil changes with this engine, as well as no belts, and no valve or throttle linkage adjustments. This makes Evinrude E-TEC engines easier to own than comparable four-stroke engines. In addition, numerous advancements combine to create the Evinrude E-TEC quiet signature sound including an exclusive idle air bypass circuit.
Its going to be hard to beat this one !!! :) Truly a new 2-stroke era.
You can go directly to the site from the link posted above.
no prob...timeliness 2003-2004 :)
But we are getting there...well done for the research :)
I really love these discussions keep it up! :)
Gottie you did a wonderful job. Especially for my project, thanks also to you Spnotta for any help given in this thread. Gottie could you please send me your mobile number as I wish to personally contact you since you own an Etec.
and etec s are approved to be used on lake constance (selected models)
kurtfalcon, gottie provided you with an excellent link for your project but unfortunately it is dated 2004...timeliness is an big issue here...try to find a more recent statement of the sort for your write up.
A few days more and you might have more than enough material for your project. LOL.
;D Hehe ;D I might as well just copy and paste this thread onto a Word document and print it and give it to my teacher. Lol ;)
Kurt if i may ask at what school are you ????
If he is doing a SOK project most probably he is at JC.
I am at JC. Did mine last year on sustainable fishing.
Quote from: bigboy on February 26, 2009, 22:57:17 CET
I am at JC. Did mine last year on sustainable fishing.
That is very interesting bigboy would it be asking too much if I ask you to provide us with the conclusions from your project?
Hey bigboy I am at De La Salle sixth form first year. Must be interesting yours about sustainable fishing, my friend who's in second year did it on fishing. She's from Marsaxlokk and she did it on methods of fishing. Quite interesting. I chose my topic since I believe I am the first and only one doing such a project. My tutor said that he never had any student doing his project on my topic. I like being original. So you are in second year at JC?
Ghal dawk li qalu li l-etecs u id- DIs l-ohra ha jinqataw: http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/E-Tec/Video/06_Emissions.htm (http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/E-Tec/Video/06_Emissions.htm)
one cannot base one's conclutions on a commercial video!
I am not particularly interested in favoring 4 or 2 strokes (there are much bigger issues to be concerned about) but from what the links that were pasted here there are keywords in the documents provided that should make one ponder...are there any vested interest by the authors, were the comparisms and statistics correct and placed on level grounds? No direct citations for science studies provenace? Are the authors considering future restrictions? Are the authors considering the feasability of catalytic converters for more restringent restrictions? Are the authors presenting unbiased accurate data?
In no means I am favoring 4 or 2 stroke, but one should always question the objectivity, method, provenance and timeliness of data collected.
I think catalytic converters on outboards is a bit difficult since if it touches the water when hot the honeycomb inside will break which houses Rodium platinum and palladium. Even this is sometimes mentioned on vehicles manuals to avoid running into large (large)paddles of water. To keep it completely shut would generate to much heat (ok for optimun performance considering that Cats where first used in california where average temp is 25degC) but I think it will be exessive. More so would they make it in open loop or closed loop system which then requires 2 lambda sensors. in the exhaust pipes.Considering all, the cost will rise quite a bit apart from being complicated , but who knows what technology will bring.
this might sound stupid but have you considered running outboards or inboards on lpg which is much cleaner then petrol ?
Quote from: Destination Sea on March 03, 2009, 22:07:29 CET
Considering all, the cost will rise quite a bit apart from being complicated , but who knows what technology will bring.
platinum and rhodium are very expensive catalysts...but in a world potentially awaiting a major catasrophe due to climatic change in the near future, the immense reduction the respective catalysts bring upon HC,CO2 and NOx emissions justifies the cost.
Isma SPNOTTA mhux al xi haga ta. Int thobb issib ix-xaghra fl-ghagina wisq man ta. BTW I wish to thank KaptanJr, anglers, Destination Sea, gottie u skip ( people in the order I contacted them) for promising me help in my project. 10q very much. If there are any other that can help me, don't hesitate to send me a PM because your help is very much appreciated.
Quote from: kurtfalcon on March 04, 2009, 20:43:58 CET
Isma SPNOTTA mhux al xi haga ta. Int thobb issib ix-xaghra fl-ghagina wisq man ta.
LOL... joking apart, I consider a half truth worse than a lie and also I believe if one has to go on about doing something... better to do it proper. The sorry present global state would improve immensely if the majority of us would scrutenize, challenge and evaluate every piece of data that is thrown at us.
This is not a case of finding the needle in the haystack but research approach.
Isma ppl. Ma tafux min fejn nista nsib xi apparat li jkejjel l-emissions ux?
Kurt you started the topic in English please stick to English.
DJS might be able to help as the ADT have equipment to measure emissions.
if you require emission equipment for outboards i think its a bit difficult since if its a thru prop it will also measure the air around..Pls note that air measures the same as exhaust gas with 2% Co.In vehicles when the probe is inserted it than differs with the amount of Co. Moreover cars are measured with a 4 gas analyiser.Thus in my opinion if you require emissions for outboards you have to get the manufacturers specifications.
Quote from: Destination Sea on March 04, 2009, 22:30:21 CET
if you require emission equipment for outboards i think its a bit difficult since if its a thru prop it will also measure the air around..
That is not much of an issue, blanksamples of the "clean" air LOL can be repeatedly sampled between respective emission samples. The averaged air samples can be deducted from the averaged emission "contaminated" with air samples.
To effectively do this a number, say 5 -10 repeated reading of samples and blanks have to be performed. Futhermore, to check upon the precision of the results you should have a low percentage standard deviation corresponting to the tolences of the analyser. While you are there make sure that the instrument is calibrated and performace chanced! Locally, you never know!!!
As for the accuracy well, one could always run them along gas standards to verify the accuracy of the instrument and method.
Maybe Malta Standards Authority might be able to help you with this.
Skip you are very much right. I apologize for the inconvenience. When I used to study chemistry at O level I remember there was a test for CO2. But I do not remember exactly to tell you the truth.
I think you are refering to the hydrazine hydrate qualitative test. :)
If I remember correctly it was bubbling the gas into a test tube full of an acid I'm not sure which. But still that showed the presence of CO2 not the actual amount therefore it might still be useless. I need something which gives you the actual parts of CO2 in air.
Unfortunately I do not work in a lab any more...otherwise I could have gladly analysed the samples for you.
you can do this by bubbling the CO2 being produced through Calcium hydroxide solution (quickLime) which turns milky from colourless because of the precipitation of Calcium CArbonate. The calcium carbonate can than be filtered off washed and dried and titrated against an acid like Hydroclhoric or sulfuric acid and the volume of CO2 present in the carbonate can be calculated. This is a an accurate method for analysing the volume of CO2 present obviously other methods are available but are crude in my opinion and may not give meaningful results. Good luck
The accuracy and precision of the method described by Barbun is very dependent on the analyst's lab skills and also due to the scope of this specific investigation it's accuracy range falls short of the respective task.
If you require chemical/labware I might be able to help you and no I don't have any commition. :)
What about VRT testing garages? I think I would check in one of these garages first.
I will try the VRT tip since going into labs would cost me a lot of money and I don't think its worth it. Thanks guys
For an SOK project...not very worth it...I agree :) good luck!!!!
Although I must say that it's 40% of the final examination mark. Thank ppl
Guys I have now finished my project and will hand it in on Monday.
I would like to thank all of the kind people who helped me including:
RLR Yachting Limited (Evinrude E-Tec) , MM2 Limited (Mercury OptiMax), Mecca Marine (Tohatsu TLDI) for information on outboards
Kaptan Boats for information on boat building
KaptanJR (and his brother), ForTuna, Destination Sea and Anglers for the owner's review.
I would also like to thank all those others who offered to help. Although I wished to, I had to perform only( thankfully propjament) 8-12 visits.
Thanks very much people.
Good luck mate and I hope u get full marks.