I am planning to upgrade to a 20-22ft boat mainly for fishing but also for some family time.
Here is a list of features I am looking for
- Sea worthy - since I go offshore also in winter I would need it to withstand some bad weather if it catches me
- Speed - I need as much speed as possible - target is cruising at 35knt in F3-4 winds and 15knt is F4-F5 winds
- twin outboard Motors - for reliability
- Cabin with sleeping area + Pilot house with hard top
- Not too heavy to be able to load/unload in winter
- storage space and other basic features as found in all good brands
I have only done a sea trial on a PeterCraft 20 which is quite good but would like some feedback from other members about other boats.
Julian,
That's quite a shopping list :)
The first thing I would focus on is the type of hull, offshore hulls tend to have a Deep V pretty much from the bow to the stern, deadrise would be min 19 degrees, sometimes even 21 (though unusual). This kind of deadrise let's your slice through the waves in F3-4 though I'm not sure at 35 knots without going flying around, but requires a lot more power to get you up on to the plane and sustain it. That translates to bigger engines, so more of an initial purchase cost and possibly higher fuel consumption.
The compromise would be say 15 degrees deadrise......boats that start off with a good V and flatten out at towards the stern are designed that way to help you get up and on the plane with less power but at the sacrifice of the ride......they tend to pound more in adverse weather.
The not too heavy part is also a bit of a problem in my opinion, because boats built solidly with a good V and flare at the bow tend to be on the heavy side to give you the required strength to run at speed in bad weather.
I have already expressed my opinion on twin engines elsewhere on the forum, but basically if on a twin engined boat you can't run on the plane with one engines, then twins are pointless because all you have is an expensive and over-sized auxillary engine. In such a situation you're better off with a big beefy single 300 or 350hp outboard and then a 10-15hp aux on the side. With the right prop chances are the aux will do a similar speed to a single 150hp assuming the other 150 failed. Remember in a twin engine set up the engines are offset from the centre line and I don't think you'd be willing to jump in the water and change the prop on your working engine in order to try and get you home on the plane/at some kind of reasonable speed.
Aside from the above, if your reason for twin outboards is safety/reliability, then make sure you have two separate fuel tanks, separate fuel lines and filters to each engine and ideally to avoid possible fuel issues you fill up each tank from different places!!! As you can see a lot of hassle......
I know as you like to go extreme deep bottom fishing far offshore these things are important, but I would much rather invest in a good reliable outboard and buy a good EPIRB, plus liferaft then spend the additional money on twin and the extra money on annual maintenance.
Perhaps Petecraft can offer you their 22 model with a custom deck that would include an enclosed wheelhouse? I believe they may also have a new model in the pipeline that may be suitable for you, so I would give them a call.
Or a Buccaneer , but not sure if they have a model that meets your requirements especially on the speed side of things.
A large RIB will offer you the kind of speed performance and ability to run in rough seas that you are looking for, including the light weight , but then doesn't tend to have the sleeping area/pilot house you want......though there is something like this http://maltafishingforum.com/talk/index.php/topic,3854.0.html
Or perhaps one of the USA built walk around boats like a Hydra Sports http://www.hydrasports.com/boat-models/features-and-details/boat/9/2100WA or a Trophy http://international.trophyfishing.com/brochure.asp?modelid=230093
This one is still for sale http://www.boatlinkmalta.com/Bayliner-Trophy-2102-for-sale.html though you may need a power upgrade to get a 35 knot cruising speed.
What's your approx budget?
Great analysis Skip, wish I was as half or quarter technical as you :)
http://fishingboats.apolloduck.us/feature.phtml?id=212974
Robby, that's a centre console, no cabin/sleeping area!
my bad, i thought it was similar to Colin's Seafox... pic not to clear
my two cents...I have bayliner which i bought for family time ending up doing more fishing. It has a high top speed +40knots, good consumption, an aux engine which pushes it at 5knots, cabin, stowage. However, two main disadvantageous... inboard engine (costly maintenance every two years) and most of it is upholstered which means cleaning cleaning cleaning especially albacores who love to spill blood all over the boat. I have driven it in 4knots at 22+knots with some knocking. hence i would imagine the trophy (being also part of the bayliner co.) should be fitting all your requirements since it is with an outboard and without upholstering, and some even have live bait wells.
It all depends how much you want to spend. The foreign boats that are good all come at a price. I like the Edgewater but they dont have one with a cabin and they are expensive. A new 188 CC with a 115 Yamaha shipped from the dealer in Italy costs about 37000 Euro. http://www.ewboats.com/188_center_console_14.html
Thanks I didn't think I would get this much feedback. So...
I have a Kaptan Trend at the moment which is serving me quite well. However it has some limitations from my experience
- little small for offshore
- no cabin - required for family time
- no pilot house - this is definitely required in winter rough seas - although I have a make shift one
- top speed of 25knt in calm sea - I am targeting 40+ in calm sea
- it is very sea worthy but takes some pounding when driving in not so calm waters
- can only do 5knt with aux eng in calm waters
- it is quite heavy compared to other similar boats
My boat is almost serving me well so I'm not in any hurry. However if I decide to spend I need a boat that meets my requirements and not regret it afterwards.
I dont have a budget yet however I am looking for a 20ft boat not a 35ft one and as mentioned above I need to be able to load/unload without much hassle - maybe not from gnejna slipway but from St paul or Marfa at least.
Deep V is obviously the way to go. 19deg is the most common deadrise from what I have read. I dont know if this deadrise is disigned for ocean waves or mediterranean waves? With my boat I find the N or NW swell the most difficult to drive through. Any feedback about this?
I agree with you Nick about twin engines. If the boat cant plain with a single engine then it is just useless. So ofcourse my idea of twin engines is that the boat must be able to get to plain with a single engine when fully rigged. Having 2 separate fuel systems is a nice idea although I dont think it is really practical to fill tanks from different stations.
EPIRB will be on the shopping list with the new boat yes. But about liferaft - when they say that the boat is unsinkable (as most brands say) what does it mean exactly? if it is really unsinkable a liferaft is not required right?
For some reason I dont like ribs at all. When I went with a friend on a rib for fishing I found very shallow (inside) and when the wind picked up, it gave us some serious pouning too. I dont know why they say they are so much sea worthy than other boats- whats so special about ribs?
I got a quote for the Trophy 2302 with twin 115HP outboards at about €60,000. Thats definitely out of budget. I saw the one on boatlink but as you said I would need a new motor for sure (or 2). And for the same price (or cheaper) I could buy a new boat from local manufacturers.
I agree that a rib is not designed for fishing....too much hassle as re: tube puncturing.... and the interior is very shallow........so you feel nearly outside the boat when standing up.....
What I do not agree is about sea worthinesss..... i have a small 16 foot and thrust me it can withstand rough weather like a much larger boat...Nothing can be compared to a rib for the size, when it comes bad weather..also when you are on anchor..... and when people move from side to side.... we can be 4 persons on the same side of the rib without this inclining badly to either side.
Like anything, there are good RIBs and bad RIBs - now I don't want to diss your friends RIB but could be it just isn't a good design combo between length, hull shape and tube size because in general offshore in bad weather, very little can beat a good RIB.
Have you started looking online for a 2nd Hand Trophy 2102-2302 that may have the engine you want at the price you want? I think something like that is a good compromise.
Remember that the price of a new engine in the higher horsepower range is not joke, an ETEC 225hp sells for around €16,000 whereas the same 225 Suzuki was more like €18,000-19,000 let alone a 275 or 300hp engine that around be at least €25K sucking up a large part of your budget, when you still have to get and outfit the boat, plus electronics.
Speed seems to be a major focus for you, so you're going to need a big powerful engine....on that size of boat I don't think that twin's are the way forward and one engine isn't going to be enough to get you on the plane, based on the max hp / loading you can put on the transom with twins.
Locally you have the new Petecraft 20, the 23 that had the extension making it more like a 25 footer that I've seen with a 300hp and runs well.
Thanks again.
I am hoping that some boat builders can post if any of their boats can meet these requirements?
Dear Julian,
Please have a look at the new MARINO IRIDE 640 - Very low entry price levels from Euro15999 for the complete Cabin Cruiser exclsuing Outboard and Trailer. Boat is pretty much complete. pls visit www.marino-boats.com
Various other models in stock at MECCA:
I suggest have a look also at the new QUICKSILVER BOAT RANGE: www.quicksilver-boats.com. You could buy new boat at very interesting low prices depending on the model you choose.
I invite you at Mecca Marine to show you around especially next week: 15th - 18th Sept during our annual MECCA MARINE inhouse Boat Show. Special deals for occasion.
Nichol
79732783
Not sure the Marino's qualify at all as an offshore Deep V hull that can do 30 knots in F3-4, deadrise and hull design is all wrong and far too shallow and the construction and amount of material they use far too light/scarce.
And the problem is that unless he can actually test a model on the water and verify that he can get the speed he wants and the sea keeping ability requested, I doubt Moonwalker would take a leap of faith like some ppl might.
The local boat builders are very busy Julian and barely have enough time to even log on to the forum, you can try PM CrsPetecraft but I would advise you clear a couple of hours and go speak to them directly at their new premises near Bortex - Marsa Industrial Estate. Buccaneer are close by as well.
Thanks Nick. Yes I will try to do some local shopping around and book some test rides.
As far as seaworthiness i definitaly suggest qalfat from gozo not telling you this because we own one but trough experience. Just check around maybe give him a call..I bet if you fit a turbo diesel engine between 200-300Hp and combine it with a z-drive you can get those speeds in force 3/4 easy..or maybe twin engine's have a look, and dont judge a book by it's cover ! always get some good sea trials before you make a deal..dont let the looks convince you. The only thing with inboard's is that the cost might get a little high...
Have you looked into Karnic Boats? The agent is CHL Ltd in Rabat
Karnic boats are very nice,the only problem is that they are very low and too close to the sea.
Which model Kev? I am looking at a circa 22 footer and its looks good perhaps some of the smaller older models are like that ?
Hello my friends. I would like to add my 2 cent to this topic. I own a 15 year old Kaptan Sway which out of the factory was 18 feet long. This year we decided to rebuild this boat and all the work was carred out by the same manufacturer. The boat was modified to accomodate an outboard motor. We removed the 2 diesel inboards and placed a 225 e-tec at the back. The hull is now 20feet long including the new bracket which is practicaly part of the hull. Top speed is now 42knts and we can run indefinitly with speeds of over 30knts. The hull even at these speeds is rock solid and manuvrability is at it's best. It's true that the boat is old and it does not have the looks of a newer boat but I wouldn't change it for anything else in it's category. As far as fuel consumption we where pleasently surprised. The motor burns 40liters and hour at a speed of 30knts, 30lts and hour at a speed of 24knts and 4ltrs an hour at 6knts. We are very happy with the investment we made in this old lady which now can outperform most of it's more modern competitors. And if you want to know how a Kaptan Sway performes in force 3 winds than you can ask who ever owns or has owned one of these boats. And the good news is that now, the same boat builder is working on, and building a new 18ft model.
Skip, on maltapark there is a Petecraft 22 with an etec225 for sale. Search under the name Tamasha if it interests you. I have spoken to the guy over the phone and has a genuine reason for selling and says he can prove the boat runs at a top end speed of 43/44 kts.
Forgot the model skip but for sure it was over 20 feet..i saw them a few years ago at the boat show.
A fiberglass boat better be heavy as it will buck like a bronco in heavy weather.........its nice to have a lighter fast moving boat that slices the waters but in rough weather u need a boat that keeps steady and does not dip its bow in the oncoming waves........
All I can suggest Julian is to take sea trials in rough and calm waters that way u be sure of what u need and how they perform. I will not suggest what to buy as I will be prejudiced to a particular brand.........
Good luck.........I have to say this... my first choice would be an Edgewater from the foreign...... Locally .......well......u have a smaller one and u know how it performed when the sea got really rough on you........would another brand have got u home?!?!?!?!?!?! ur call mate
I am in Gozo this weekend and will be taking a look at Qalfat boats while here.
About Karnic I crossed them out some time ago already because they only offer inboard engines it seems.
I fell in love with outboards and my new boat will be with an outboard or twin for sure.
About Kaptan boats I already know how solid and sea worthy they are. Otherwise I would have looked at another boat long ago but as I said above my current boat is serving me quite well. I heared about the new 18ft model they are building and will be having a look at it next week.
Why are you selling yours Tony?
Thanks all for the feedback.
about karnic...well they are available with outboard too...and i dont think they are low in the water, just as a fishing boat should be...just started fishing on one cause my fishing buddy just bought one... first time out we were in force 6 and with very big swell (and not imagining like most people do) handled the sea well at 10 knots...didn't go for more speed since it was the first time in that weather with this boat.
Quote from: skip on September 08, 2011, 21:27:17 CET
Not sure the Marino's qualify at all as an offshore Deep V hull that can do 30 knots in F3-4, deadrise and hull design is all wrong and far too shallow and the construction and amount of material they use far too light/scarce.
And the problem is that unless he can actually test a model on the water and verify that he can get the speed he wants and the sea keeping ability requested, I doubt Moonwalker would take a leap of faith like some ppl might.
The local boat builders are very busy Julian and barely have enough time to even log on to the forum, you can try PM CrsPetecraft but I would advise you clear a couple of hours and go speak to them directly at their new premises near Bortex - Marsa Industrial Estate. Buccaneer are close by as well.
the Marino IRIDE 640 is not the Gabry Nick. Completely different construction and design as it is a 6meter plus boat. It has a Deep V Hull - Cat B Off Shore Certified!
Yes we can also organise a sea trial should he be interested. I remind you that this boat can take a 175Hp Outboard... therefore ample speed is guaranteed and performs well also in rough seas as several boat owners can testify.
Although not as fast as Julian might want, the Arvor Range are very popular too:
http://www.arvor-boat.com/Arvor/en.aspx
The Arvor are nice boats but how come a 7.3 m boat is rated max HP 150 HP and a 6.88 m boat rated max HP 115 HP. and they are both rated Category C inshore. i would expect every boat over 20 ft to be rated Category B offshore
Getting old Julian need a smaller boat leave the offshore thingy to u younger guys now. All I need is a trip to the fishfarms, maybe amateur fads and a bottom sea for Pagell.... thats a 12 mile trip *thats coastal fishing to where we used to go'' I used to go further than that when I had the 14foot Kaptan, with a 15hp. those were the days...
Good luck in ur search and dont rush it mate....
Lol getting old Tony? Most ppl would buy a boat when they start getting old since they have more free time :)
Nice spotting that Mark. If its rated C inshore than its definitely not good for me. The IRIDE 640 is rated B offshore so will keep that in the list.
Will also add Karnic again if they offer Outboard options. They seem nice boats too.
Had a sea ride on a 18ft Qalfat boat today and it handled the sea very well although it was relatively calm. However they dont have a cabin for the 20ft model yet and it is designed for inboard only.
This is getting really complicated - a lot of sea trials are on the way....
From what u r saying I think the best two boats for u would be the Petecraft 20 or the buccaneer 205. Both have the requirements u r asking for. U claimed u already tested the Petecraft boat, so may I ask what was your verdict of the boat's sea trial? If you haven't tested the buccaneer 205, I think Joe the Gaffer once told me he owned one, so he can tell you how it behaves.
Petercraft 20 looked good but I need to do another sea trial or two to get the full picture.
Yesterday we had a bad (or good is some sense) experience. The main motor stopped at 4pm while 25nm from shore. After about an hour trying to start it again we gave up and had to get in using the spare motor at 5knts. So we spend 5hrs for a trip that usually takes us a little over 1hr. The good thing is that we arrived safely shore just little late.
So the question is - Is it really usefull to have a spare motor or it is better to call AFM to tow you in? I mean in 5 years this is the first time we have motor problems and never had to use the spare one other than a 10mins run every 2 months or so.
Well how much would AFM charge you for towing 25nm?
The version I know goes like this.......If you are leaving the 12nm territorial limits you have to radio Malta VTS and inform them of your intentions. If you do call for assistance and you are 25nm, but you didn't inform them before, then they have the right to charge you to tow you back in.....a figure of €500 to €800 comes to mind.
For some non life threatening (at least at the begining) given the stretched resources of the AFM, self help is always better than relying on them to come tow you in.....but operationally I have no idea how they work.
Can the Petecraft 20 accomodate twin 150hp engines? What is the max rated hp on the boat?
In a situation like this that a satelite phone is important. You can phone your relatives that you are safe but it will take longer than expected to arrive at land.
If I remember well they would charge you at 50 maltese lira an hour, from the time they left base... until the time they tow you in...
Then if they like you and see that you are a poor fisherman, they might close one eye.... and they do good.. imagine you being stranded in the middle of the mediteranean.... you would appreciate it.
There is also the probability that you will be fined because you were outside the teritorial 12Nm zone with a boat which is not registered as Valletta.
hekk irrid :P
@ Moonwalker I dont think that if you were in a headwind of force 3 to 4 you can still do 5 kts with the 9.9 hp. if you had 2 engines say 60 HP each you wont plane with 1 engine but at least in those wind conditions you can still do 5 kts
@ Skip/baghira - so if I inform them in the morning that I am leaving the 12nm zone and call for assistence from 25nm then they tow me for free?
The Petercraft 20ft has a max HP of 225.
@bigboy - ofcource I always fish in the 12nm zone :) Then after 2hrs trying to start the motor I found myself at 25nm :D
@busu - Yes I know and with 2 motors the boat would be much more stable in the water than with 1 motor only. So I am inclining again for a 2 motor setup for the next boat.
I'm not sure about for free towing but you'd have to check. And everything tends to get inspected, but that's what insurance is for! All I know for sure is that its a lot more expensive if you don't !
As to the drifting issue, during SAR operations they can calculate drift direction, wind, waves , current etc so bear that in mind.
An EPIRB and Sat phone if you are fishing far offshore are essential pieces of kit
Ok let me understand this clear - If you are outside the 12nm zone and need a rescue operation, they charge you differently if you had informed VTS before or not?
Ofcourse I was joking about the drift issue. Thats why I need a bigger boat to be registered Valletta.
A Satphone is quite handy indeed but about the EPIRB - This is only usefull if the boat sinks right? Otherwise you can get the waypoint from GPS or Satphone.
or the sat phone or electrics of the boat get damaged...lets say for whatever reason ur batteries develope a short circuit and u are left without juice.....no Gps no sat phone what do u do??? operate the Epirb......so its not just if the boat sink.
Quote from: Moonwalker on September 17, 2011, 10:14:09 CET
Thats why I need a bigger boat to be registered Valletta.
Yes Moonwalker make sure you get it registered Valletta as the law is being enforced. Yesterday when the bite was getting hot at around 15nm I was approached by a Patrol Boat who "politely" asked me to get into the 12nm.......
we called you sat bry, but we were on the west side of Gozo...no bites over there. Seems it was ok on the east side then.
Next time we will emigrate to that side LOL. So those few inches makes a difference eh bryan.......shall we modify so next year??????
I think we need Shisha to grow a couple of feet during the winter - let's start feeding her :( (unless it was a one off year enforcement)
It wasn't really worthed either on the east side though as these bloody greedy tunnagg barely give you a chance to put your lure into the water! They just wouldn't let us fish for lampuki! It's either my lures are super or else I cannot understand what protection tunnagg need as the sea is full of them!
No moonwalker... nothing is for freee....You have to be in an iminent danger of death to be towed for free...
one needs to be an illegal immigrant to be towed for free!
Quote from: caldaland on September 18, 2011, 22:57:36 CET
one needs to be an illegal immigrant to be towed for free!
I was waiting for someone to say that :)
That' an old saying...........
I've said it myself to the soldiers towing me back some 6 years ago..... but I still paid 150euro..
Benri if there are lampuki and tunnag, fish for lampuki the way io told you and its much more fun :)
(saqsi l fortuna ha jejdlek kif iggennen il bierah jtella lampuka wara lampuka :P )
big boy mhux ahjar tghidi ftit kif qed tistad u fejn ghandi mmur...... mill-bidu tal-istagun s'issa 1 biss qbadna :(
hahha jien ma qbad xejn.......imma mort darbtejn biss.......