Federation Meeting with Fisheries Board Sub Committee for new Sport/Recreational

[Granitu]

When it comes to equipment, as rightly suggested previously, I think it would be easier and safer to list the items that cannot be used instead of the items that can be used.

Legally that would not be the best option. Loop holes would be created.

[Gogo]

Benri "When it comes to equipment, as rightly suggested previously, I think it would be easier and safer to list the items that cannot be used instead of the items that can be used. "
the  term of reference related to fishing  gear in  Maltese reads 'X'Tip ta' sajd ghandu jigi kkunsidrat sajd rikreaxxjonali'. That is the reference the subcommittee his bound to discuss.
However apart from indicating which gears are considered as recreational,  we also pointed out which are not, so not allowed. In law there was never mention of recreational fisheries. There are a set of fishing impliments (fishing gear so called at the time) which are with no license. All others are with a license.
Gogo                                        

[malvizzu]

Jidher li m'hawnx bizzejjed interess mis-sajjieda dilettanti fuq din il-kwistjoni.
Tajjeb,mela dak li ha jigri hu dan.Certu ammont ta dilettanti jimxu mar regoli il-godda,u ma jaqbdux huta,u il-kumplament,jigu jaqghu w jqumu mir-regolamenti u jkunu vvantaggjati fil-qbid tal-hut.Mhux ghax se jifdal xi kwantita ta hut taghfux. L-ghazla f-idejkhom!

Ma naqbilx mieghek habib. Tahseb li mhux kull dilettant tas-sajd huwa mugugh b'li qed jinghad?! Izda mhux necessarjament kulhadd huwa kapaci li jikteb jew jesprimi ruhu fuq il-forum. Kif qal tajjeb Gaffer, aktar jistghu jghidu l-administrators ta' dan il-forum kemm qed jinqara dan it-topic milli kemm qed jiktbu nies direttament.

[shanook]

Granitu please specify further even in a pm if u want to....

@gogo I still cannot see the exercise of this gear thingy as it seems that things are the same as before. The gears used by the amateur fisherman was never ever in conflict with the professional full time fisherman. Even when we troll for Albacore, the fisheries dept now knows that out of 50 boats that took part in the competition, I think only ONE tuna was caught. I dont think that will hurt the professional.

Gogo I still cant figure out your reasoning. So you accept that the cooperative proposes things that appertain to us amateur fisherman. This is like saying someone comes to my house and proposes how i run my house...I would send him to hell (and I am being nice here).

These things should be discussed in our house only and when they are contested by others we will defend and bring our arguments.

Gogo you are older than me and you know how things start first its just to list, then it will be list with a licence and then puff.............its all gone. like what happened with the 25 mile zone for PTF. it was there but not enforced then came the Fisheries and instead of taking care of the amateur fisherman it enforced the Valletta registration. As a matter of fact the fisheries did not accept the our registration without having paid the Valletta registration...ha doing the job of another dept.

[shanook]

@gogo...quote ''the  term of reference related to fishing  gear in  Maltese reads 'X'Tip ta' sajd ghandu jigi kkunsidrat sajd rikreaxxjonali'. That is the reference the subcommittee his bound to discuss.'' unquote

So if I had to say, everything except.....(and i list the items that cannot be used).
Wouldnt that be the same.

With the system of listing the items that can be used is dangerous as if you leave something out its gone forever.
How about Hjut (vertical long lines) did we list that?

[caldaland]

Tony shanook,i dont agree with any and all rules that are imposed on us,from those that,because of greed,wants to crush us.Simple and easy.These meetings should be stopped immediately!Without further delay.On the contrary,we should discuss new rules and regulations that benefits us.After all,WE ARE NOT THE CULPRITS THAT IS FINISHING OFF THE SEA!!!!!!!!!So,let us stop this bullshit whilst producing one unified front.

[Gogo]

shanook, you "cannot see the exercise of this thing". The reason is that most members as soon as I posted the first post started mounting arguments over arguments that we cannot fish, fish stocks will be depleted, that and that sector is against the amateur fishermen, people taking part are incompetent or for their advantage and so on. the truth is that this exercise is a review of  the present legislation and situation with the aim to approve and add what is missing.
Again you are right " as it seems that things are the same as before". Of course things are the same. There is no plot against the amateur fishermen but to legally (written in law) insert the Amateur Fishermen with all their rights in the FCD. Once this is done then no sector or whoever is will be able to manipulate amateur fishermen.
Cooperatives have the right to propose but not to dictate as was the previous old attitude. If they propose we counter propose where things are detrimental to our cause. As you well know only one issue is pending.
To contest and defend their must first be rules and regulations not just verbal agreements. Also I think things are being  discussed in our house and we are bringing our arguments and this is manifest by MFF posts.
Well the boat  registration is another issue which will be soon dealt with. At present there are anomalies at legislation level which have to be cleared. This is the reason why there are two legal counsellors (lawyers) on the subcommittee. Yes the muddle and irregularities that exist in registering boats is also being tackled. I hope that now one does not start shooting on TM and FCD. The time will arrive.  See Tony, in a meeting discussion heated as may be one can still discuss but on any forum so many relevant and irrelevant issues are rightly and wrongly interpreted that most people get confused. So if we keep the argument in question maybe those colleagues out there will understand what is on.
without first having notion of TM legislation.  
Bottom longlines include horizontal and vertical,  shallow and deep Longlines. There where we have a controversy as regards deep bottom lines i.e for stone bass (Dott) and bazuk (blue spotted bream).

Gogo

[caldaland]

Malvizzu,bil-qari biss ma nirbhux battalji.Kulhadd jaf jikteb u jaqra ghax kieku ma jidholx f'dan il-forum.M'hemx ghalfejn jinkitbu poeziji,kelma jew tnejn ta kuragg bizzejjed.

[caldaland]

Gogo,i wish to ask you a professional question.As you are a medical doctor,what do you think i should take as,your last post drove me crazy?

[shanook]

1 no i cannot see the reason as there is no reason. not because I am influenced by other posts. I speak my mind (like me or hate me, but u know where i stand and i keep my stand).
2 we had the regulations which stated what we cannot use and they were accepted by one and sundry.
3 if the department found it necessary to do an exercise than that exercise should be done solely by Amateur fisherman (then when that is done) others can make their proposals.
4 this is not an inhouse discussion on the forum its an open to all discussion where anyone can see and read and be ready for whatever we say or do. I can say things in our club which I wouldnt say here.
5 this is the easiest part (fishing gear) and we are finding problems imagine when things get worse like number of fish kept (keep bag). etc etc.

I repeat my only OBJECTION and insult is that these are NOT from amateur fisherman to amateur fisherman but there are outsiders interfering in our business. I cannot accept that sorrrrrrry its agaisnt my basic principles, no matter what you or others say.

[busumark]

I also agree that we should be told what not to use and not what to use. Like someone already mentioned if something is left out because it was forgotten what will happen or if a new type of fishing gear for recreational fishing is invented what will happen will be law be updated every time ?
@ Granitu mentioning what can be used will have more loopholes for the authorities to use against us.

[Granitu]

I also agree that we should be told what not to use and not what to use. Like someone already mentioned if something is left out because it was forgotten what will happen or if a new type of fishing gear for recreational fishing is invented what will happen will be law be updated every time ?
@ Granitu mentioning what can be used will have more loopholes for the authorities to use against us.

Guys no need to PM i will explain here.

Law is only effective if:-

It is detailed in what you can do and what you cannot do;
Is updated regularly

This is one of the problem Maltese law is facing, and is highly regarded by lawyers as it is very easy to get away even if you break the law. Also consider other practices that can be used in the future (eg imagine if some greedy person.. uses this: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_ultrasonic_waves_kill_microorganisms

Now, imagine you specify the equipment you cannot use only and any other equipment not mentioned is legal. When new equipment or old equipment is not included in the list but in all matters of ethics and fact it is non recreational, there is nothing that exclusively makes it illegal.

E.g. Imagine the law does not include in the illegal list gangmu in equipment illegal to use. this could be used by some fisherman and they will not be breaking the law.

In these situation, the law normally refers to appendices to the law that provide a list and can be updated any time at the discretion of the fishing director in consultation with the stakeholders (representatives of the fishing association)

Remember, when the law is vague and difficult to understand, the authorities will start interpreting law the way they understand it. Eventually, if god forbid there are court cases, if the magistrates deem the law is inconsistent, they will deliver sentences based on their judgement and start referring to CASE LAW (Court rulings) and not the law because of its vagueness.

Better have a detailed and well explained list that can be regularly updated than start to relying on case law. When case law comes in, only lawyers benefit as it is subject to interpretation.

If you need further explanation or have any queries let me know.

[caldaland]

Simply put,all discussions must stop immediately,until everything is discussed by amateur fishermen for amateur fishermen.PUNTO E BASTA!

[Gogo]

Granitu puts the real picture at which state  of confusion certain laws are.
Take a look at this:
Small ship regulations.
Article 1. (3) (b)  to regulate water based recreational activities in the internal and territorial waters  of Malta;
Questions:
Is recreational fishing included?  I think this is a recreational water based activity.
If yes where are the fishing regulations with penalties etc within the subsidiary Legislation 499.52 of Transport Malta?
Such regulations are found in subsidiary legislation of 425.07 of FCD.

So at this stage who is responsible to regulate recreational fishing?

There are similar anomalies which have to be legally thrashed out in the sub committee with legal advisors. This is not an issue which has been brought up by cooperatives or amateur fishermen but by legal advisors of TM and FCD. However these legal changes concern us. Therefore it is important that representatives of both stakeholders are present to possibly avoid a repeat of the past when amateur fishermen representative meet only the FCD and did not know what was happening with the then MMA./ Fisheries Department meetings.

Gogo

[Granitu]

Granitu puts the real picture at which state  of confusion certain laws are.
Take a look at this:
Small ship regulations.
Article 1. (3) (b)  to regulate water based recreational activities in the internal and territorial waters  of Malta;
Questions:
Is recreational fishing included?  I think this is a recreational water based activity.
If yes where are the fishing regulations with penalties etc within the subsidiary Legislation 499.52 of Transport Malta?
Such regulations are found in subsidiary legislation of 425.07 of FCD.

So at this stage who is responsible to regulate recreational fishing?

There are similar anomalies which have to be legally thrashed out in the sub committee with legal advisors. This is not an issue which has been brought up by cooperatives or amateur fishermen but by legal advisors of TM and FCD. However these legal changes concern us. Therefore it is important that representatives of both stakeholders are present to possibly avoid a repeat of the past when amateur fishermen representative meet only the FCD and did not know what was happening with the then MMA./ Fisheries Department meetings.

Gogo

Exactly gogo the question here would rather be what is recreation activity not just recreational fishing as the picture can extend to boating too.  i dont have the small ships law at hand so i simplified the explanation. But the example is perfect